General Question About TTM

[scooter31707]

This is just a off the wall question, not trying to question/doubt the method and not to start nothing, just general conservation. If someone went to the LFS and brought a fish and brought it home and put it in the 1st TTM tank, why can't this be considered transfer number 1? So we would actually do minimum of 9 days. Just wondering.

 

[lg2725]

Hmmm. Good question. Following this one until the experts chime in.

 

[microlady]

I've heard it can work that way. Some of us do 12 because we are paranoid.

 

[scooter31707]

Question #2
Just was at my LFS and overheard someone you can do TTM on inverts. True or False?

 

[microlady]

It doesn't work on them. Someone posted about it a while back. They harbor the encysted stage which can stay on them indefinitely.

 

[Cakebaker13]

It doesn't work on them. Someone posted about it a while back. They harbor the encysted stage which can stay on them indefinitely.

Not indefinitely. But a 2 month quarantine is sufficient to ensure all cysts have hatched changed life cycles and died from starvation (since there were no fish in the quarantine.)

 

[Cakebaker13]

This is just a off the wall question, not trying to question/doubt the method and not to start nothing, just general conservation. If someone went to the LFS and brought a fish and brought it home and put it in the 1st TTM tank, why can't this be considered transfer number 1? So we would actually do minimum of 9 days. Just wondering.

That would require the LFS store to have placed the fish in a newly cleaned tank without any Ich inhabiting the tank. The first transfer is to get the fish into a clean tank so the encrusted Ich can fall off and then transferred to a new tank before it can change life stage. If the free swimming Ich is in the tank and inhabiting the tank, then the first transfer still needs to be done.
Further; the 12 days 4 transfers is to make sure the job is done. As with most medical things, done=overkill.

 

[scooter31707]

Cool..I qua ranting the inverts for 72 days. Just wanted some opinions on the questions

 

[snorvich]

This is just a off the wall question, not trying to question/doubt the method and not to start nothing, just general conservation. If someone went to the LFS and brought a fish and brought it home and put it in the 1st TTM tank, why can't this be considered transfer number 1? So we would actually do minimum of 9 days. Just wondering.

The first transfer is not coming from "clean wafer" if it is from an LFS.

 

[scooter31707]

Got it. Thanks for the feedback and opinions.

 

[microlady]

Yes, indefinitely. Some strains last longer than 2 months, but that sounds like a decent quarantine period.

 

[ThRoewer]

Not indefinitely. But a 2 month quarantine is sufficient to ensure all cysts have hatched changed life cycles and died from starvation (since there were no fish in the quarantine.)

Not necessarily if you talk about ich. All others usually yes.

 

[Cakebaker13]

Not necessarily if you talk about ich. All others usually yes.

What specifically do you refer to?

 

[Cakebaker13]

Yes, indefinitely. Some strains last longer than 2 months, but that sounds like a decent quarantine period.

To what species specifically are you referring?

 

[snorvich]

What specifically do you refer to?

Brook, velvet, uronema to name a few.

 

[Cakebaker13]

Brook, velvet, uronema to name a few.

Can you provide any references stating that those parasites are capable of surviving in a fishless environment, or feeding off invertebrates?
You, yourself even state in the following thread that Brooklynella hostilis & Uronema marinum can be treated with a quarantine of longer then 84 days.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388437
Since 99% at 84 days would mean given enough time that near certainty would be achieved.

And E. Noga states in "FISH DISEASE Diagnosis and Treatment" that Amyloodinium ocellatum (Marine Velvet) has a life cycle nearly identical to freshwater Ich (Ichthyophthirius multifiliis) suggesting it too is a fish obligate parasite which would be eradicated with starvation.

 

[Mishri]

I think cakebaker13 is referring to the: "indefinitely" statement made by microlady.. maybe she figures they are like brine shrimp and can be dormant for years... which I haven't seen any research that would suggest that...

I see in a few recent threads there have been some discussions, theories that ich may be surviving for much longer than previously observed in lab settings.. I've also read articles claiming new research is turning up new strains of ich capable surviving hypo salinity.. (this I haven't seen any proof of any research indicating that though, so it could be completely fabricated)

So far I see all of these as anecdotal only, as nobody as done a proper test to make certain there wasn't some other cause.

 

[microlady]

I think cakebaker13 is referring to the: "indefinitely" statement made by microlady.. maybe she figures they are like brine shrimp and can be dormant for years... which I haven't seen any research that would suggest that...

I see in a few recent threads there have been some discussions, theories that ich may be surviving for much longer than previously observed in lab settings.. I've also read articles claiming new research is turning up new strains of ich capable surviving hypo salinity.. (this I haven't seen any proof of any research indicating that though, so it could be completely fabricated)

So far I see all of these as anecdotal only, as nobody as done a proper test to make certain there wasn't some other cause.

Yes, I said indefinitely because I have personally observed it lying dormant for more than 3 months and reinfecting fish. Others have witnessed the same or longer periods of dormancy. There hasn't been enough research on it. The fallow periods may just buy you some time by getting the infected fish into clean water, the crypto time to reduce its numbers, and give the fish enough time to build immunity. I refuse to pull mine out again. It's too much trouble and heartache.

 

[ThRoewer]

Brook, velvet, uronema to name a few.

Brooklynella and Amyloodinium should be gone after 6 weeks fallow, but Uronema is an opportunistic fish parasite and will survive any fallow period as long as there is anything living in the tank that generates detritus or supports bacteria growth, the things Uronema normally feeds on.

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[ThRoewer]

... I've also read articles claiming new research is turning up new strains of ich capable surviving hypo salinity.. (this I haven't seen any proof of any research indicating that though, so it could be completely fabricated)

...

The 2 know low salinity ich strains were isolated from fish farms in Taiwan. There is at least one scientific paper about them: http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao2003/54/d054p147.pdf

The fish farms were in estuaries and the ich strains could handle salinities as low as 5 ppt.

So, they definitely exist. But until someone proves otherwise I would assume that they haven't yet made it into the ornamental reef fish trade.
Reef fish from Taiwan at best uncommon.

If you treat your fish with hyposalinity and they had one of those strains you would know it pretty soon as the hyposalinity wouldn't have the slightest effect on the infection - the fish wouldn't clear up but rather be as sick as before.

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