Genesis Renew vs Apex DOS

[Elricsfate]

I'll be setting up an automatic water change system in the not too distant future. A guy at a LFS was telling me that he just uses the DOS to do AWC. I had been looking at the Renew previously, but now I am wondering if there is any good reason to use an entirely separate AWC system when the DOS appears to be able to do the job.

Thoughts or experiences?

Thanks

 

[mcgyvr]

All thats needed are a few float switches and some pumps..
Anything that can take care of that can perform water changes..

 

[Elricsfate]

All thats needed are a few float switches and some pumps..
Anything that can take care of that can perform water changes..

Thanks. I get that. But I'm more of a buy it rather than build it kinda guy. So I was trying to figure out if there was some reason to buy the Renew rather than just use the DOS as part of an Apex controlled system.

 

[slief]

I've been using the Renew for several years now absolutely love it. Prior to the Renew I used a Litermeter 3 with a slave pump. The Litermeter would operate similar to the Dos. The Dos is a great pump and there is programming in the Apex to do automated water changes with it. That said, the Renew has it's advantages over the dosing pump AWC.

First the Renew doesn't require calibration.
The Renew doesn't require tubing changes.
The Renew can change out 1 gallon every couple minutes.
The Renew can be set to change out 1-99 gallons at one sequential time (continuous) or a day or a week. It can be set for repeat meaning if you set to to change out 5 gallons a day, it will repeat the process daily.
The Renew is designed to do nothing but water changes and it does that better and more accurately than anything on the market. If you make sure your metering bins are level, there will never be any salinity drift. It's one gallon in and one gallon out. Peristaltic pumps require calibration for accuracy. Especially when two pumps or pump heads are set to transfer the same amounts of water. The more you use them, the more frequently calibration will be required. The less you calibrate them, the more they tend to drift apart in terms of flow from one head to the next. The Renew doesn't share that issue.
One of the biggest upsides to the Renew is the speed at which water can be changed compared to a peristaltic pump. Every now and then, I will kick off a 40 gallon water change in my system beyond the 5 gallons a day I change out. With the Renew it's as simple as pushing the up or down button on the controller to change the gallon number and changing the mode from daily to continuous. Then hitting start and walking away. Imagine having an issue in your tank or having a need to change out a large volume of water and not having to lift a bucket or deal with pumps. The Renew is built for that purpose and it does it perfectly.

There is also the Storm ATO option which can be helpful in some cases. It knows when the Renew is doing a water change and stops the ATO from being triggered when 1 gallon is removed from the system. This can be important because the Renew fills both the waste water metering bin and the new water metering bin at the same time. The one gallon out of the sump can trigger an ATO pump before the new water is released into the system. In my case, I have a delay programmed into my Apex to insure the ATO float switch must be at a low level for 3 consecutive minutes prior to triggering the ATO pump. This allows my Renew enough time to complete the water change and also insures that my ATO isn't triggered by surface motion in my sump. With that programmed in, the Renew will never trigger my ATO.

For me and those I've setup with a Renew, the Renew has proven to be a hugely valuable piece of equipment and it does what it does by far better than any other AWC solution on the market. The float switch idea with a couple pumps is a novel one but you can't beat the ease of use, speed, accuracy and intuitive nature of the Renew. Plus, you don't need to worry about siphoning which would be a potential issue when using two pumps and float switches to do the water changes. The Renews metering bins prevent that scenario.

 

[L8Braker]

SLIEF you have been phenomenal in improving my knowledge on this product and I will be going forward buying a Renew soon. I am trying to figure out what salt you use for your pre-mixed bin? Alot of salts I see say not to mix that far in advance but as you know with larger tanks we need to mix alot in a storage container to last 2-4 weeks. I have been using tropic marin pro, but debating swapping salts due to a strange orp lowering phenomenon everytime I do a water change and it keeps rebounding about 20pts lower than it was the previous month. I'd love to hear more about your setup as far as circulation/aeration etc.

 

[Elricsfate]

I've been using the Renew for several years now absolutely love it. Prior to the Renew I used a Litermeter 3 with a slave pump. The Litermeter would operate similar to the Dos. The Dos is a great pump and there is programming in the Apex to do automated water changes with it. That said, the Renew has it's advantages over the dosing pump AWC.

First the Renew doesn't require calibration.
The Renew doesn't require tubing changes.
The Renew can change out 1 gallon every couple minutes.
The Renew can be set to change out 1-99 gallons at one sequential time (continuous) or a day or a week. It can be set for repeat meaning if you set to to change out 5 gallons a day, it will repeat the process daily.
The Renew is designed to do nothing but water changes and it does that better and more accurately than anything on the market. If you make sure your metering bins are level, there will never be any salinity drift. It's one gallon in and one gallon out. Peristaltic pumps require calibration for accuracy. Especially when two pumps or pump heads are set to transfer the same amounts of water. The more you use them, the more frequently calibration will be required. The less you calibrate them, the more they tend to drift apart in terms of flow from one head to the next. The Renew doesn't share that issue.
One of the biggest upsides to the Renew is the speed at which water can be changed compared to a peristaltic pump. Every now and then, I will kick off a 40 gallon water change in my system beyond the 5 gallons a day I change out. With the Renew it's as simple as pushing the up or down button on the controller to change the gallon number and changing the mode from daily to continuous. Then hitting start and walking away. Imagine having an issue in your tank or having a need to change out a large volume of water and not having to lift a bucket or deal with pumps. The Renew is built for that purpose and it does it perfectly.

There is also the Storm ATO option which can be helpful in some cases. It knows when the Renew is doing a water change and stops the ATO from being triggered when 1 gallon is removed from the system. This can be important because the Renew fills both the waste water metering bin and the new water metering bin at the same time. The one gallon out of the sump can trigger an ATO pump before the new water is released into the system. In my case, I have a delay programmed into my Apex to insure the ATO float switch must be at a low level for 3 consecutive minutes prior to triggering the ATO pump. This allows my Renew enough time to complete the water change and also insures that my ATO isn't triggered by surface motion in my sump. With that programmed in, the Renew will never trigger my ATO.

For me and those I've setup with a Renew, the Renew has proven to be a hugely valuable piece of equipment and it does what it does by far better than any other AWC solution on the market. The float switch idea with a couple pumps is a novel one but you can't beat the ease of use, speed, accuracy and intuitive nature of the Renew. Plus, you don't need to worry about siphoning which would be a potential issue when using two pumps and float switches to do the water changes. The Renews metering bins prevent that scenario.

Thank you. This is precisely the kind of information I was looking for.

If you don't mind me asking, what ATO are you using? Or is it simply a float and pump connected to the Apex breakout box?

I have been looking at using the Osmolator, but the issue you described with the AWC triggering the ATO has been a hurdle.

My plan at this point is to use a reservoir, fed by my RODI system, and using the Tunze water controller to avoid TDS creep by filling it only when it is low. Then an Osmolator to move the water from the reservoir to the sump.

TBH I have been going around in circles mentally on how best to automate as much as possible without creating conflicts in programming that will fail to accomplish what I want to do.

 

[Elricsfate]

Do you run the Renew's tubes into and out of the return chamber? If you were to run them in the skimmer chamber would that help with the issue of having the AWC trigger the ATO, since the sensor for the ATO would most likely be in the return pump chamber?

Just trying to work this all out mentally, prior to spending money.

 

[slief]

Thank you. This is precisely the kind of information I was looking for.

If you don't mind me asking, what ATO are you using? Or is it simply a float and pump connected to the Apex breakout box?

I have been looking at using the Osmolator, but the issue you described with the AWC triggering the ATO has been a hurdle.

My plan at this point is to use a reservoir, fed by my RODI system, and using the Tunze water controller to avoid TDS creep by filling it only when it is low. Then an Osmolator to move the water from the reservoir to the sump.

TBH I have been going around in circles mentally on how best to automate as much as possible without creating conflicts in programming that will fail to accomplish what I want to do.

Do you run the Renew's tubes into and out of the return chamber? If you were to run them in the skimmer chamber would that help with the issue of having the AWC trigger the ATO, since the sensor for the ATO would most likely be in the return pump chamber?

Just trying to work this all out mentally, prior to spending money.

My Apex handles my ATO duties which is the way I setup any ATO when a controller is used. I use redundant float switches connected to my Apex and a Stenner Peristaltic pump that the Apex controls.

Mine goes in and out of the return section though my float switches are in my skimmer section of my main sump. If you take a gallon out of your skimmer section, the water level will still drop in the return section.

That said, how much water does a gallon raise or lower your sump? You will be adding 1 gallon of water and removing 1 gallon of water regardless of what the ATO does. if the ATO adds water due to the Renew, it really won't impact things in the long run because the gallon isn't likely to impact your salinity much and evaporation will bring the levels back to normal anyway. That said, if your Apex is handling the ATO, it's really simple. Just create a virtual outlet for the ATO float and use a min time statement of 3 or more minutes so that the ATO is only triggered when the switch is in that position for 3 minutes straight.

This is my "Add Water" virtual outlet programming:
If Sw1 OPEN Then OFF
If Sw1 CLOSED Then ON
Min Time 003:00 Then OFF

The Min Time Line means that Sw1 has to be on an open state for 3 consecutive minutes before virtual outlet Add Water turns on to trigger my ATO pump. This allows the Renew to change the water without impacting my ATO while also insuring that my ATO isn't triggered by a wave in the sump or some turbulence.

This is my Top Off Pump outlet programming.
Fallback OFF
If Outlet AddWater = ON Then ON
Defer 003:00 Then ON
If Outlet AddWater = OFF Then OFF
If Outlet Return = OFF Then OFF
If Outlet SumpFull = ON Then OFF
If Outlet SalinityLow = ON Then OFF
If Outlet SumpTooFull = ON Then OFF
If Outlet BoB_Unplug = ON Then OFF
Min Time 015:00 Then ON

I have a number of fail safes in there to prevent the ATO pump from turning on under certain circumstances. I also have my ATO pump set to run for 15 minutes which is longer than it needs to run. I do this because my sump and refugium total about 180 gallons of capacity and the large surface area means that an extra gallon or two of water won't impact my level noticeably but will insure my ATO pump turns on less frequently.

 

[L8Braker]

SLIEF has 4 videos on the complete system but you are asking about #3 watch it here....make sure you watch them all they are worth every second

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IFwt5ExBUw

 

[Elricsfate]

My Apex handles my ATO duties which is the way I setup any ATO when a controller is used. I use redundant float switches connected to my Apex and a Stenner Peristaltic pump that the Apex controls.

Mine goes in and out of the return section though my float switches are in my skimmer section of my main sump. If you take a gallon out of your skimmer section, the water level will still drop in the return section.

That said, how much water does a gallon raise or lower your sump? You will be adding 1 gallon of water and removing 1 gallon of water regardless of what the ATO does. if the ATO adds water due to the Renew, it really won't impact things in the long run because the gallon isn't likely to impact your salinity much and evaporation will bring the levels back to normal anyway. That said, if your Apex is handling the ATO, it's really simple. Just create a virtual outlet for the ATO float and use a min time statement of 3 or more minutes so that the ATO is only triggered when the switch is in that position for 3 minutes straight.

This is my "Add Water" virtual outlet programming:
If Sw1 OPEN Then OFF
If Sw1 CLOSED Then ON
Min Time 003:00 Then OFF

The Min Time Line means that Sw1 has to be on an open state for 3 consecutive minutes before virtual outlet Add Water turns on to trigger my ATO pump. This allows the Renew to change the water without impacting my ATO while also insuring that my ATO isn't triggered by a wave in the sump or some turbulence.

This is my Top Off Pump outlet programming.
Fallback OFF
If Outlet AddWater = ON Then ON
Defer 003:00 Then ON
If Outlet AddWater = OFF Then OFF
If Outlet Return = OFF Then OFF
If Outlet SumpFull = ON Then OFF
If Outlet SalinityLow = ON Then OFF
If Outlet SumpTooFull = ON Then OFF
If Outlet BoB_Unplug = ON Then OFF
Min Time 015:00 Then ON

I have a number of fail safes in there to prevent the ATO pump from turning on under certain circumstances. I also have my ATO pump set to run for 15 minutes which is longer than it needs to run. I do this because my sump and refugium total about 180 gallons of capacity and the large surface area means that an extra gallon or two of water won't impact my level noticeably but will insure my ATO pump turns on less frequently.

Thanks so much! I will in fact watch your videos as well, as suggested.

I really appreciate the people here who take the time to explain, in detail, how these systems work. I am not entirely new to reefing or fish keeping in general. but I am entirely new to all of the technology in use these days. Any single system is not too difficult to understand, but the interaction of multiple systems, and the configuration/programming required, can sometimes be overwhelming to those of us who are not familiar with it.

 

[SethO]

Do you run the Renew's tubes into and out of the return chamber? If you were to run them in the skimmer chamber would that help with the issue of having the AWC trigger the ATO, since the sensor for the ATO would most likely be in the return pump chamber?

Just trying to work this all out mentally, prior to spending money.

Using APEX, I have the Osmolator turned off until a complete fill/empty cycle is completed. (I am using DOS for the AWC).

 

[SethO]

Using APEX, I have the Osmolator turned off until a complete fill/empty cycle is completed. (I am using DOS for the AWC).

ATO Outlet:
Fallback OFF
Set ON
If Time 03:00 to 06:00 Then OFF
If Time 11:00 to 14:00 Then OFF
If Time 19:00 to 22:00 Then OFF
If Outlet 3_2_RtrnPump = OFF Then OFF

The DOS performs the water exchange during the times specified.

 

[luvreefs23]

What's the point in turning auto top off on or off with the DOS, both pumps run at same time exchanging the water. There's no reason for too off to turn on or off. I have it on 2 tanks hooked up to float valves as my top offs. Salinity has been spot on since day one 7-8 months ago.

 

[SethO]

What's the point in turning auto top off on or off with the DOS, both pumps run at same time exchanging the water. There's no reason for too off to turn on or off. I have it on 2 tanks hooked up to float valves as my top offs. Salinity has been spot on since day one 7-8 months ago.

The emptying and filling do not take place at the same time. I empty first, leading to a lowering of the water level (I do not want the ATO to kick in), I then fill with fresh saltwater, needs to allow proper mixing. During this process the water level will change, but there is no need for the ATO to be activated.

The emptying is from the skimmer section and the filling is into the return section.