geothermal help

bobafet1

Active member
Hello, I just installed a geothermal loop on my 400 gallon tank. I buried 70 feet of copper tubing about 3.5 feet deep in the ground and its connected to titanium coil that is in a chiller tube. Fresh water circulates through the copper loop while the tank water is moved through the chiller tube. Well, i cant get the sucker to lower the temp in my tank. What am I doing wrong??? Can it also be that the weather is so hot that the loop won't work yet?? Do I need to soak the ground to lower the temp where the copper loop is?? Anyone with experience please let me know how to get this sucker to work. Thanks
 
More details please:

What pump are you using to push the freshwater through the loop?

Are the copper coils spaced apart or packed together underground?

What is the surface temperature of the titanium after the loop has run for a while while it's out of the tank water?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7849718#post7849718 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Aquaduck
More details please:

What pump are you using to push the freshwater through the loop?

Are the copper coils spaced apart or packed together underground?

What is the surface temperature of the titanium after the loop has run for a while while it's out of the tank water?

thanks for the reply, Im using a grundfos pump (im sure its not spelled right) to move the water....the copper pipes are spaced about 10" apart from each other....and I don't have a way to measure the temp of the titanium since its in an enclosed tube...I can probably let the coil run for some time with the tank water circulating through the tube and test the temp...I will do so tonight...
 
bobafet1,

I strongly suspect that the ground temperature 3.5' down in CA in the height of summer isn't very cool at all. Did you take any temperature readings when you were digging the trenches? Are you able to do a 3.5' core and stick a temperature probe at the bottom so we know what the ground temperature is? This is where I would start checking.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7879007#post7879007 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ChemE
bobafet1,

I strongly suspect that the ground temperature 3.5' down in CA in the height of summer isn't very cool at all. Did you take any temperature readings when you were digging the trenches? Are you able to do a 3.5' core and stick a temperature probe at the bottom so we know what the ground temperature is? This is where I would start checking.

Thanks for the info. I am in the process of having a pool built and so I had the tractor guy dig my trench for me. I installed my plumbing and was ready to do a series of tests but had to go to work. When I got back the trench was filled. The guy thought he had done me a favor, and he did, but the timing sucked. So I guess I will start digging today and measure the temp. Thanks
 
Sorry to hear it. With a few temperatures in hand, we can work out roughly what you should be seeing (we have to make a few assumptions along the way).
 
I just finished digging the hole and measured 25 degrees C. Im not too savy on what that is Fahrenheit.
 
25C is 77F which is none too good for a geothermal chiller. The ground temperature 3'-4' more feet down is considerably lower which is what were after for cooling our reef tanks. What temperature are you trying to maintain in your reef tank?
 
Im trying to keep my tank at 78 degrees. Right now I have a Sequence Dart, Oceans Motions 4 way, Sequence Hammerhead, and 4 250watt halide bulbs with luminarc 3 reflectors(only running 2 right now) adding heat to the tank.
 
Wow, that is a massive heat load that you're asking the ground loop to dissipate. To make matters worse, you want to keep the tank one degree warmer than the ground that you're rejecting heat to. This is for sure the problem.

I can tell from the load and the soil temps that the temperature rises quickly during the day. What does the temperature top out at just before lights off?

P.S. Don't lose hope, this is fixable but we'll need all our ducks in a row before you head back out with a shovel.
 
The highest the temp has ever gone is 83 degrees but thats due to two fans set up on a temp controller. Also, Im only running 2 of the halides for 5 hours a day and I turn the Closed Loop off during the night.

Thanks again for all the help, I owe you a frag!!!!
 
Ok, we need a few more pieces of data and sadly they live a few feet deeper in the ground. What you really need is a temperature profile as a function of depth. What is the ground temp 4' down, 4.5' down, 5' down, 5.5' down, 6' down, etc.

I don't know how much of the underlying science you are interested in, but the rate of heat transfer from the hot inside of your copper pipe to the cold outside of the pipe is a function of the temperature gradient (difference) across the pipe wall. If there is only a 1 degree temperature difference the rate of heat transfer (heat flux) is going to be very very minimal. Conversely, if you enjoy a 20 degree temperature gradient, the heat flux is going to be extremely high. When chemical engineers design heat exchangers we work things so that the temperature gradient everywhere is at least 5F. This is so that any given section of the pipe is exchanging a decent amount of heat. You've got (at most) a 6F temperature gradient when the 83F water leaving the Ti coil first enters the 77F ground. In actuality the water temperature leaving the Ti coil will be lower than 83F since it would take an infinite length of Ti to warm it to exactly the temperature in your sump. What we need to do is move the copper loop lower in the ground to a point at which you've got a decent temperature gradient across the pipe wall. This will drive up the heat flux.

What is happening right now is the heat flux across the copper pipe wall isn't as large as the heat flux into the display. As long as this is the case, heat will build up in the system and drive up your temperatures. If we can get the heat flux across the copper pipe wall larger than the heat flux into your display the geothermal loop will be able to maintain your temperature.

I hope that all makes sense. I've made a couple of simplifying assumptions in what I wrote so that things don't get too technical.
 
No problem. Hopefully you'll go down a few more feet and find sub 70F temperatures waiting for you.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7883288#post7883288 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bobafet1
Im trying to keep my tank at 78 degrees. Right now I have a Sequence Dart, Oceans Motions 4 way, Sequence Hammerhead, and 4 250watt halide bulbs with luminarc 3 reflectors(only running 2 right now) adding heat to the tank.

1 Sequence Dart = 160 watts max
1 Sequence Hammerhead = 400 watts max
4 250 watt halide bulbs = 1000 watts max
Total = 1560 watts

So at a minimum we need a ground loop capable of rejecting 1560 watts to the earth. Once we know what temperature we can get from the earth at a reasonable depth, we can figure out if your copper pipe is long enough and if your Ti coil is long enough.

As an aside, I hope that the copper is electrically isolated from the titanium. If the two metals are touching oxygen rich water filtering through the soil will set up a galvanic corrosion cell in which the copper is the anode and the titanium is the cathode. Anodes sacrifice themselves to protect cathodes and thus the copper will dissolve over time. To prevent this, use a few feet of PEX or PVC between the two metallic pipes.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7884792#post7884792 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ChemE
1 Sequence Dart = 160 watts max
1 Sequence Hammerhead = 400 watts max
4 250 watt halide bulbs = 1000 watts max
Total = 1560 watts

So at a minimum we need a ground loop capable of rejecting 1560 watts to the earth. Once we know what temperature we can get from the earth at a reasonable depth, we can figure out if your copper pipe is long enough and if your Ti coil is long enough.

As an aside, I hope that the copper is electrically isolated from the titanium. If the two metals are touching oxygen rich water filtering through the soil will set up a galvanic corrosion cell in which the copper is the anode and the titanium is the cathode. Anodes sacrifice themselves to protect cathodes and thus the copper will dissolve over time. To prevent this, use a few feet of PEX or PVC between the two metallic pipes.

WOW!, you are a genius....
I have about 9 feet of pvc between the titanium and the copper. I hope that is enough.
As soon as it cools a bit more today I will begin digging to get to 70F, hopefully cooler. Man, I didnt realize how many watts the hammerhead is sucking up..looks like I need to find a more efficient pump. Thanks always, for the info.
 
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