Gfci?

[spjames]

Tom, both Reefugee and myself have provided the National Electrical Code, ie. the bible to electrical contractors, which clearly states that you are within code to have an ungrounded GFCI as long as it is clear that it is ungrounded. This was the answer to your original question and anyone arguing against the answer is arguing with the 'electrical law of the land' which seems about as redundant as the ground wire in the GFCI.

To answer your follow up question...it is perfectly acceptable to run a ground wire from your panel to the GFCI and this will enable you to utilize equipment requiring a ground, typically your 3-prong plugs. Obviously you will not need to label the outlet as it will now be a grounded GFCI. If your goal was only to use GFCI with 2-prong plugs then the ground wire is unnecessary.

 

[tomreefer]

Thanks everyone

 

[Bakerman]

OP, PLEASE, listen to SPjames, he speaks truth.

GFCI eliminates the need for a ground lead downstream, period. This has been employed time and time again, and it works. I've lived and modified houses such as yours for literally decades now (dang I'm old!). The only option you have is to properly install a GFCI as nothing else will suffice in your case (short of major modifications to your incoming supply).

GFCIs are probably THE most important safety weapon in our arsenal. If all of your saltwater goodies are fed from a GFCI, you're good. Sleep well and don't worry. If you feel the need to install a ground rod in your tank, DON'T. Anyone who tries to convince you otherwise doesn't understand the very nature of electricity.

Note--there most certainly is a difference between protecting the safety of your livestock and the human feeding machine. The two are almost mutually exclusive when it comes to electricity. The choice is yours.

-credentials, 20 years in industry as an EE with ~19 years of hazardous and explosive experience.

 

[fishgate]

You probably do have a ground in that box that is connected to the box itself. If you look back in the box you should see the copper ground wire coiled up in the back connected with a screw to the metal housing. If this is the case, then your GFI is grounded since the metal box of the GFI is screwed to the metal gang box which is grounded. If in doubt, get a simple 3 light outlet tester from home depot ($5) and it will tell you if the ground is present. I have done wiring repairs on 50s era homes and usually they all have this ground wire in the box.

 

[tomreefer]

Ok so if there is a ground present I don't have to hook up a ground wire to it? I connected a ground wire to the box

 

[ThisGuy12]

OP, PLEASE, listen to SPjames, he speaks truth.

GFCI eliminates the need for a ground lead downstream, period. This has been employed time and time again, and it works. I've lived and modified houses such as yours for literally decades now (dang I'm old!). The only option you have is to properly install a GFCI as nothing else will suffice in your case (short of major modifications to your incoming supply).

GFCIs are probably THE most important safety weapon in our arsenal. If all of your saltwater goodies are fed from a GFCI, you're good. Sleep well and don't worry. If you feel the need to install a ground rod in your tank, DON'T. Anyone who tries to convince you otherwise doesn't understand the very nature of electricity.

Note--there most certainly is a difference between protecting the safety of your livestock and the human feeding machine. The two are almost mutually exclusive when it comes to electricity. The choice is yours.

-credentials, 20 years in industry as an EE with ~19 years of hazardous and explosive experience.

Grounding rod? No one here suggested or recommended a grounding rod to the tank. *EDIT* for what it is worth I agree, I do not like grounding rods in the tanks its almost like putting a bandaid on a deep cut, it will work but it doesn't fix the problem.

I am suggesting he install a copper wire from the green leed on the GFCI to the back of the electrical box in which the receptacle mounts. If anything the extra 10 seconds of effort will only improve the functionality of the GFCI, it's like running a marathon and stopping 10 feet from the finish line.

And gentlemen before you all jump on me (SPjames) stating NEC this and I am wrong that consider where I am located. Here in Canada our laws typically frown on simply labelling a GFCI outlet as non ground protected. Our inspectors will not approve the use of a GFCI in that fashion, given how simple it is to ground the receptacle to the box.

Now I know why I stopped posting here for awhile... unbelievable.

~~~~ EXPERIENCE 20 YEARS IN THE COMMERCIAL/RESIDENTIAL CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY ~~~~

 

[fishgate]

Ok so if there is a ground present I don't have to hook up a ground wire to it? I connected a ground wire to the box

Get the below plug. It will tell you all you need to know.

http://www.amazon.com/Amprobe-ST-10...&qid=1453991279&sr=8-2&keywords=outlet+tester

 

[Windy2]

~~~~ EXPERIENCE 20 YEARS IN THE COMMERCIAL/RESIDENTIAL CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY ~~~~ Still wrong. GFCI's do not require a ground.

 

[ThisGuy12]

~~~~ EXPERIENCE 20 YEARS IN THE COMMERCIAL/RESIDENTIAL CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY ~~~~ Still wrong. GFCI's do not require a ground.

JESUS H CHRIST do I need to spell it out for you? THEY DO NOT REQUIRE A GROUND. But why wouldn't you put one in? It's simple, ground it to the box. Done. Your GFCI now has an equipment protection ground.

Do I need to draw you a diagram or do you get it now?

For the record please explain why you wouldn't want to add an equipment ground to the circuit??? What's the problem?

 

[Reefugee]

If your box is grounded, you're better to run a bare copper wire from the box to the screw. I would not automatically assume that the box is grounded. You should buy one of those testers that Fishgate posted earlier. Home Depot and Lowe's should have similiar testers for about $10. Make sure it has the button to test the GFCI.

Refugee, so basically I shouldn't have ran a ground wire to the outlet box? I went to home depot and screwed a ground wire to back f the box the gfci so thats no good?

 

[fishgate]

I have a question for the electricians. How come you need a ground when the neutral (white) goes to the same place as the ground? Seems like it is two grounds (or two neutrals).

 

[Windy2]

JESUS H CHRIST do I need to spell it out for you? THEY DO NOT REQUIRE A GROUND. But why wouldn't you put one in? It's simple, ground it to the box. Done. Your GFCI now has an equipment protection ground.

Do I need to draw you a diagram or do you get it now?

For the record please explain why you wouldn't want to add an equipment ground to the circuit??? What's the problem?

I never suggested that you would not want the ground. I just don't like advice from someone who is obviously wrong about such an issue as a GFCI needing a ground. It makes any advice from you suspect.

 

[ThisGuy12]

I never suggested that you would not want the ground. I just don't like advice from someone who is obviously wrong about such an issue as a GFCI needing a ground. It makes any advice from you suspect.

See that's where you are wrong, my advice isn't correct. It works. And is actually more preferable (in my opinion) than simple adding a sticker that often gets removed via cleaning or because it is unsightly.

Both methods work. One is clearly morally better than the other. Besides, with the price of some of the equipment why wouldn't you want to utilize the grounding prong properly?

 

[swiftvision]

Garage not necessary but helpful. Kitchen should be gfci but again depends how close to a water source it is (+/- 3'-0").

NEC requires GFCI in garages in dwelling units.

 

[Reefugee]

Fishgate -

First - I am no electrician, so my explanation may not be 100% correct. But this is my basic understanding. I think you are asking two different questions. I will attempt to answer your questions.

1. The neutral wire is consider a current carrying wire, where as the ground is normally is not a current carrying wire. You can in theory hook up the ground wire to the neutral of the outlet and make things work But now your ground wire is carrying a load. Lets say hypothetically, that ground wire is broken down stream, and you are holding onto the ground or a metal chassis connect to the ground - you are now holding onto a hot wire. Since the ground wire is broken down stream, the electrical current will try to go through you to some other source (say the floor). This will result in a shock or electrocution. So we separated out the ground and the neutral line. The neutral line is insulated so that when it's carrying a current, it won't energize anything it touches. The purpose of a ground wire is to ground your equipment chassis. So let say some how there is a short between the hot wire and the chassis - the ground wire (or even neutral wire) will become current carrying wire. Because of the rush of currents, it should trip the breaker. The ground wire is also needed for surge protection.

2. At the main breaker box, you have a neutral bar and the ground bar. These two bars are connect together. (Note that in a sub-panel, the ground bar and the neutral bar must not be bonded together - otherwise you just energized your ground wire downstream of the subpanel.) The neutral bar is connected to the neutral line from your electric utility company. The ground is hooked to a grounding rod that is driven deep into the ground. When you look at the flow of resistance - there is much more resistance for electricity from hot to ground than from hot to neutral. So under normal condition, the flow is to the hot to neutral line. The ground is there so that when lightning struck your power line, it will travel through the line (either hot and/or neutral) to then tho the ground. Without the ground, the electric spike would have no where to go and could damage your equipment.

I have a question for the electricians. How come you need a ground when the neutral (white) goes to the same place as the ground? Seems like it is two grounds (or two neutrals).

 

[Windy2]

See that's where you are wrong, my advice isn't correct. It works. And is actually more preferable (in my opinion) than simple adding a sticker that often gets removed via cleaning or because it is unsightly.

Both methods work. One is clearly morally better than the other. Besides, with the price of some of the equipment why wouldn't you want to utilize the grounding prong properly?

What has morals to do with it? They are decided by religion not electrical codes.

 

[mkobu]

IMO on a house that old you might want to open the wall a bit and check that there is a ground wire going to the box... Could be cut or gone by now?

 

[Bakerman]

Grounding rod? No one here suggested or recommended a grounding rod to the tank. *EDIT* for what it is worth I agree, I do not like grounding rods in the tanks its almost like putting a bandaid on a deep cut, it will work but it doesn't fix the problem.

I am suggesting he install a copper wire from the green leed on the GFCI to the back of the electrical box in which the receptacle mounts. If anything the extra 10 seconds of effort will only improve the functionality of the GFCI, it's like running a marathon and stopping 10 feet from the finish line.

And gentlemen before you all jump on me (SPjames) stating NEC this and I am wrong that consider where I am located. Here in Canada our laws typically frown on simply labelling a GFCI outlet as non ground protected. Our inspectors will not approve the use of a GFCI in that fashion, given how simple it is to ground the receptacle to the box.

Now I know why I stopped posting here for awhile... unbelievable.

~~~~ EXPERIENCE 20 YEARS IN THE COMMERCIAL/RESIDENTIAL CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY ~~~~

Nobody mentioned a rod. But it seems that any conversation which involves grounding as related to a tank, the idea of solving all of your problems by putting a ground rod in the tank inevitably comes up. It was a side comment and had nothing directly to do with the OP's topic.

As for the ground on the GFCI, take one apart and have a look see inside. The ground terminal on the outlet has absolutely NOTHING to do with the function of the GFCI or the protection it provides via the GFCI function. The only reason it is there is to provide a means for equipment ground. Anything connected to a properly grounded GFCI will have both ground fault protection AND equipment ground protection.

Therein lies the basis of your suggestion to go ahead and run a ground to the (supposedly) grounded box, and I agree. It's not going to hurt anything, and there's a sliiiight chance that it could help in certain situations. So, sure, why not.

But don't mistake this wire for anything that's sure to provide protection because it is most certainly NOT. Here are a few reasons. First, this is a 2 wire system. Yes, the box may be grounded....but we don't know how it was done or if it was done properly. It's ENTIRELY possible that the box is "grounded" by means of a plumber strapping a copper water pipe to the galvanized riser conduit and boom, ground. This would be an accidental ground at best, and I've actually seen this multiple times. But it's such a poor ground that it's beyond useless in any fault situation. Or, it's an example of why we went to a 3 wire system in the first place. "Grounded" 2 wire systems were commonly grounded by means of bx style armor shielding, or full conduit, or similar continuous systems. Problem is, they only work poorly at best, even when installed by an OCD electrician and properly maintained. Corrosion and other activity usually renders these systems non-functional in a matter of a short period of time.

 

[Bakerman]

Get the below plug. It will tell you all you need to know.

http://www.amazon.com/Amprobe-ST-10...&qid=1453991279&sr=8-2&keywords=outlet+tester

It'll tell you a lot, but it won't tell you if it's a crappy ground that shouldn't be used.

 

[Bakerman]

JESUS H CHRIST do I need to spell it out for you? THEY DO NOT REQUIRE A GROUND. But why wouldn't you put one in? It's simple, ground it to the box. Done. Your GFCI now has an equipment protection ground.

Do I need to draw you a diagram or do you get it now?

For the record please explain why you wouldn't want to add an equipment ground to the circuit??? What's the problem?

In your defense, this statement is absolutely true and for what it's worth I agree 100%. But I'm not sure you made this point very clear earlier in the post which prompted retribution. Also, I think some (such as me) are concerned that the OP would consider simply adding a ground as a sufficient means of adding protection instead of focusing on installing a properly functioning GFCI which is where the true protection comes from.