Gill Based ich infestation or Something else altogether?

[Chief Reef]

accidentally posted this in the wrong section previously.

hey guys, long time lurker to this and many other reefing forums.if i have a question regarding reefing, i google it and 9/10 times i can find my answer with multiple sources to cross reference,hence why ive never felt a need to post. however this one has me stumped.
My tanks around 8 months old, and since ive added my first fish(Flamehawk) i always noticed he breathed quite heavily especially at night, i chalked this up to ph problems as i didnt know much at the time and after googling it concluded low ph along with Ph swings from night to day could possibly be my problem, i acted to correct this and ph is now stable and at proper levels, i also increased flow and surface agitation to help put more oxygen in the water just to cover my bases. this still didnt seem to help, due to being a novice i put it out of mind and the fish has been fine(albeint still breathing somewhat heavily) for months.

Ive always been slow to add fish so he was the sole fish in the tank for awhile untill i got a pair of clowns who seemed to be suffering from the same problem, they just seem to be panting really fast as if just running a marathon, but otherwise behaved normally. ive never seen any flashing or any other kind of symtoms to make me think something was wrong with the fish themselves. This changed with my my last addition, a Small Meleagris Leopard wrasse. I read up a ton on this species before purchasing (theres a huge primer on this species on either this site or another but i can't remember which it is.) so i knew they had a high chance of harboring intestinal parasites, and Low survival rate in Qts, from what i read it was generally regarded as being better to Put them straight in the display similiar to a mandarin dragonetand treat with prazipro .
Shes been in for two weeks eating normally( she didnt even do the hiding thing, out eating from day one, totally happy and plumpso far, though i know "success" with this species is t the 1 year mark. i attribute this mainly to the knowledge i learned from the primer, particularly a Poster Named iamwrasseman)

Anyways, a couple days ago i noticed a flash or two while picking at the rocks. my heart skipped a beat and i instanty thought "ich" i closely watched her and saw none of the telltale spots but the same rapid breathing as every fish inhabitant in my tank but again, was Eating and acting normally. Up at 10am, in the sand by 11pm like clockwork and eating like crazy.a day later my male clown was flashing as well. but was otherwise fine. he has since stopped but the leopard wrasse still flashes every once in awhile. i have never seen so much a spec on any of these fishes though

after doing as much research as possible ive come to the conclusion i have ich in my tank. infact i think ive always had it with the hawkfish being patient 0 and ive just been lucky so far in that the few fish ive had have been abe to resist a full blown outbreak, however i suspect ich to be the reason all my fish exhibit rapid breathing with no other issues and water paramters in check, ive hear this is possible when the infection is mainly based around the gills.
up untill now i did not quarantine(a Novice mistake i know, tommorow i will be purchasing the materials for a proper quarantine/hospital tank setup.)

i know what needs to be done and im ready to do it. i just need to be sure and get a second opinion before i put these fish through any stress, the fact they have possibly been living with this for weeks/months because of me bothers me to no end and im ready to fix it. But the lack of any other symptoms(Up untill the leopard) have left doubt in my mind

All i need to know is whether this seems like ich contained to the gill area or something else, i dont want to stress this fish by treating for ich unless they truly have it. but i know i could be running short on time.

Parameters are as follows

Salinity:1.025
Nitrates:0-10
Nitrites:0
Ammonia:0
PH: 8.0

Skimmer:none
Live rock:around 40-50lbs
Inhabintants: Flamehawkx1 False Percs x2 Leopard wrasse x1
none of these fish are over 2.5 inches

i have many inverts but have moved them to another tank as i will be treating the display(I know this is highly advised against but ive done the research and decided to take the chance rather thank stress my fish by catching them and putting them in a smaller more crowded tank to treat them there. i am prepared to deal with the die off and possible ammonia spikes associated with this, and the the possiblity of my silicone and live rock absorbing and leeching the copper if i choose to medicate with such. this thread is not to discuss such things though.)

about 1200 GPH turnover coming from two koralia nano 450's and an aquaclear 70 filter modded into a minifuge.

I know there are likely some things people dont agree with here about my tank setup but please keep things on topic, i only wish to know whether this is likely an ich outbreak that isnt showing the spots or speculation on what else it could be. Thank you for your time.

 

[snorvich]

Please read the stickies in this forum. It does sound like ich.

 

[Chief Reef]

Please read the stickies in this forum. It does sound like ich.

thanks, but i have read all of your postings regarding parasites multiple times.
the fact the only symptoms are gasping and flashing(which has ceased, the flashing that is) which is a symptom of around 4 different diseases/parasites (granted 2 of those ive never even heard of before) which is why im not so confident in just deciding its ich

thanks for your input on what it might be though.

 

[Outerbank]

CR, yes it can mostly be harbored in the gills or difficult to see on the body of an otherwise healthy fish. I think this is quite common and most tanks have outbreaks when new fish are introduced and a few hardy fish survive but continue to host a subclinical or minor infection. There is always a risk of outbreak. By stabilizing your system and avoiding new fish you may be able to get by for a long time.

 

[Chief Reef]

CR, yes it can mostly be harbored in the gills or difficult to see on the body of an otherwise healthy fish. I think this is quite common and most tanks have outbreaks when new fish are introduced and a few hardy fish survive but continue to host a subclinical or minor infection. There is always a risk of outbreak. By stabilizing your system and avoiding new fish you may be able to get by for a long time.

thank you for the input, this is exactly what ive heard regarding ich in marine tanks, and i think situations like that are why there are so many who believe ich is in every system, i picked up all the stuff i need for quarantine and treatment and will be treating the display tank. i dont want to "get by" i want this stuff off my fish and out of my system. i can only imagine what its like living with something like that on your gills.

ill be keeping this thread posted on the results for the sake of anyone else who finds themselves in this situation. wish me luck

 

[alprazo]

Good luck. Without a microscope, Empirical treatment based on what is most prevalent is probably the best way to go. Treat for ich with the symptoms you've described and over 80% of the time you will be fine.

 

[Chief Reef]

attempted my first dose, had to use a decent amount more than the bottle recommends, but i expected that, since ive heard leopards are sensitive to copper treatment i decided to go very slow so that she can adjust and hopefully survive the treatment.

Cupramine levels aren't where the instructions say i want them, but they are definitely effecting inverts, the few hermits i missed made themselves known immediately, and there's stuff i didn't even know was in my tank coming out of the rocks to die(i plan on frequently siphoning all die off and have nitrifying bacteria and and large amounts of NSW at hand to handle any ammonia spikes.) it saddens me to see all this micro-fauna dying, but at least i know the medicine is working for its intended effects at this point, ill be stopping dosing now to allow my leopard to adjust and very slowly ramp it up over the course of the next week or so to let the fish adjust.

on a brighter note the fish's breathing seems to have improved somewhat, though still a decent bit abnormal. Fed them lightly and they ate somewhat although nowhere near as voraciously as usual.This was to be expected though. will be watching them closely for the next few days.

 

[Chief Reef]

2nd day of treatment. Woke up to ALOT of dead/dying bristleworms, i removed a few that were coming out to die before i went to bed and probably took out twice as many this morning. put in another does of bacteria to deal with any bioload increase from me missing any worms or stuff that stayed in the rocks to die.

Flamehawk isnt eating, Clownfish are though. Havent seen my leopard since i started the treatment yesterday, she's usually up way earlier than now so im a bit worried, for now im chalking it up to then hiding in the sand when somethings wrong. though i know they dont take copper well.

 

[alprazo]

Keep an eye on your ammonia level. When you nuke to live rock with copper, it kills off a lot. It also makes it near impossible to maintain the correct copper levels so keep checking them. Twice a day I would say

 

[snorvich]

Keep an eye on your ammonia level. When you nuke to live rock with copper, it kills off a lot. It also makes it near impossible to maintain the correct copper levels so keep checking them. Twice a day I would say

Good advice. If you drop below the therapeutic level, your treatment becomes problematical.

 

[Chief Reef]

thanks for the concern guys but im already ahead of you on that one. did lot of research before i decided to do this, Bolstered my filtration a bit beforehand with extra LR rubble and a Big bottle of Bacteria that im adding a bit of daily to help with any ammonia spikes that may happen, Along with about 50% change worth of NSW to redose with cupramine if i have to do a water change. Plus im Vacuuming up any die-off i see (mostly Bristleworms.)

Rock and sand did suck up a bit of the cupramine though, had to around double the dose to get to where the recommended for the 48 hours.

Testing Multiple times daily to make sure its staying constant. Doesnt seem to be much of an issue now that the rocks saturated though or so it seems anyway.

 

[alprazo]

The die off will also cause a bacteria bloom. Your oxygen sats could drop dangerously low killing everything. Cause surface agitation to promote gas exchange and add an air stone. Keep your skimmer going too. Great to see someone think before doing.

 

[Chief Reef]

The die off will also cause a bacteria bloom. Your oxygen sats could drop dangerously low killing everything. Cause surface agitation to promote gas exchange and add an air stone. Keep your skimmer going too. Great to see someone think before doing.

Thanks for the heads up on that as i hadnt come across that possibility when i looked into this, i keep alot of surface agitation as it is but ill keep an extra keen eye on the fish's breathing from now on.

 

[snorvich]

Lowering the temperature a bit also helps increase dissolved oxygen in the water.

 

[Chief Reef]

Lowering the temperature a bit also helps increase dissolved oxygen in the water.

thanks, im going to put a fan to blow over the water surface a bit to kill two birds with one stone, also raised one of my powerheads to the top for even more agitation.

I really appreciate all the help and advice guys, especially you snorvich. i read,read,and reread all of your postings on marine parasites to make sure i did everything in my power to make this as least stressful as possible on my fish. So far everything seems to be going well, hope im not jinxing it.

 

[Chief Reef]

Day 3 of treatment pretty much the same, minus all the bristle worm vacuuming. fish are still eating somewhat but again not with the usual enthusiasm im accustomed to, this was expected however. Still no Sign of my leopard but its a bit early for her atm anyway, still has an hour or two before her usual wake up time. Somewhat Concerned but i looked into it and found a thread or two stating their Leopard's also disappeared for few days after the initial dose and and few days inbetween, so im hopeful.

Waters a bit cloudy and im supposed to raise the levels again today so ill do a water change and dose to compensate copper lost and reach the recommended therapeutic dosage later tonight. So far so good it seems, i really hope this is the last time i have to deal with something like this, Will definitely be Quarantining + Preventively treating for disease all new additions (Corals included) from now on.

 

[Chief Reef]

Small update: my Leopard wrasse finally made her triumphant appearance and Copper be damned is eating like a BEAST. might do an extra feeding or two for her because even though she pigged out shes scouring the liverocks for pods and such, which is obviously in vain at this point.

Really happy about this because the whole reason i decided to treat the display was because she was such a healthy specimen and i didnt want to risk losing her by catching her and shoving her in a smaller tank with 3 others and THEN treating her with something shes sensitive too. So happy to see her pullin through so far:beer:

 

[Chief Reef]

Update: Got the Copper to the recommended treatment levels, Been testing twice a day and its consistent, Parameters are all stable, Ammonia Etc. are all good. Fish are all eating and Leopard wrasse is back to her usual schedule.seems everyones adjusted to the cupramine. At this point im just keeping an eye on parameters and cruising so i wont be updating unless something drastic happens or until the treatments over.
thanks for everyone who helped me through this so far, really appreciate all the advice.

 

[Chief Reef]

Hawkfish started behaving behaving strangely today, Noticed hes Pale and swimming around the Tank the alot. He sometimes does this but usually only after lights out,and Not all day like hes doing now. Tested copper levels and they were at 0.5 as recommended, Considered Stopping the treatment at 2 weeks at but decided to lower Copper levels to 0.35ppm and tough it out for another week. All other parameters are stable, so i dont know what it could be besides the copper, All my other fish are fine, Even the leopard wrasse. Only the hawkfish is acting strange so im hoping lowering the dosage and Increasing surface agitation further Helps, Or that hes just being weird as he does sometimes.

Will check on him in the morning. Im really hoping he pulls through because he's my first and favorite fish, i have a QT set up but theres currently a Yellow Coris wrasse thats small enough for him to eat in one Bite residing in there so i dont want to risk putting him in there AND losing that fish as well as possibly him.

Any Opinions on whether i should Stay the course of treatment, Start Running cuprisorb now, Or move the Hawk to the QT? all advice appreciated.

 

[Chief Reef]

Flamehawk looked better when i woke up, Coloration is back and behavior has improved. Feeding like normal but still swimming around a bit more than usual and breathing a bit fast. Everyone else is fine, leopard wrasse included which surprises me because i thought they were sensitive to copper. Think ill tough it tough it out for this next week and decide whether to keep going for 4 based on how the fish are doing.