HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
Has anyone seen a stand with support on the corners only? Supposedly glass aquariums only need support on the corners, but I'm too chicken to try it first.
Glass aquarium stand with support on the corners only?
- Thread starter HippieSmell
- Start date
Where did you hear that ? You should ask whoever told you that to try it themselves and send you pictures !!
Nah man; All the way around for rimmed tanks, the whole bottom for rimless. Sure, if you had a 10 gallon with a 3/4" glass bottom, I'd say go for it, but since you'll NEVER see that, I'd be weary of believe everything you hear. :lmao:
Nah man; All the way around for rimmed tanks, the whole bottom for rimless. Sure, if you had a 10 gallon with a 3/4" glass bottom, I'd say go for it, but since you'll NEVER see that, I'd be weary of believe everything you hear. :lmao:
HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
I don't believe everything I hear. Did you hear about the man from Nantucket? I didn't believe that for a second. Then I heard about Jonah Falcon, now I'm not too sure.
Long story short (no pun intended), I don't know where I'm going with this rambling. It's just what I've read and actually heard at my LFS today. True story.
HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
No, they meant corners, not just the perimeter. I have seen pictures of tanks supported by just the ends, but never just corners.
While I've read that the corners carry the weight and are the "load points", even if it is 100% true with no doubt physics wise, which it likely is... keeping those corners from shifting and twisting will require lateral bracing.
If you find the thread here about how to build a tank stand, it notes the corner loading. It also notes the importance of not allowing the corner supports to shift.
If you find the thread here about how to build a tank stand, it notes the corner loading. It also notes the importance of not allowing the corner supports to shift.
HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
Thanks. I shot an email to Marineland about this question. I'll post their reply.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
"physics wise" any point of contact carries the load. With the entire perimeter supported, the load is distributed evenly along that perimeter and transferred to the stand. As you remove support, the stress at the remaining contact points increases, as does the point load at those areas on the stand.
Can a fish tank be supported by all 4 corners? Sure... if it is built to do so, along with the stand being built accordingly. Loading ONLY the corners changes much of the way the panels behave, not only do they have forces trying to push them apart, but also forces trying to bow them downward. Because of the geometry those forces will tend to warp the panels instead of bowing them in their strong direction. This "bowing" could be In the same direction as the forces pushing them apart (the water pressure) or counter to the water pressure. Furthermore, those added forces create significantly more force acting on the silicone joints....
The end result, regardless of how you do the math, a tank (designed for it or not) will be in much greater stress if supported only by the corners. In reality, this means an off-the-shelf aquarium is in grave danger of failure if supported in such a manner. Put simply, if it does not break when filled, the entire safety margin in the design is compromised and it will take very little to cause catastrophic failure.
Can a fish tank be supported by all 4 corners? Sure... if it is built to do so, along with the stand being built accordingly. Loading ONLY the corners changes much of the way the panels behave, not only do they have forces trying to push them apart, but also forces trying to bow them downward. Because of the geometry those forces will tend to warp the panels instead of bowing them in their strong direction. This "bowing" could be In the same direction as the forces pushing them apart (the water pressure) or counter to the water pressure. Furthermore, those added forces create significantly more force acting on the silicone joints....
The end result, regardless of how you do the math, a tank (designed for it or not) will be in much greater stress if supported only by the corners. In reality, this means an off-the-shelf aquarium is in grave danger of failure if supported in such a manner. Put simply, if it does not break when filled, the entire safety margin in the design is compromised and it will take very little to cause catastrophic failure.
LobsterOfJustice
Recovering Detritophobe
I've seen lots of tanks under 4' supported by either just the front and back, or by just the left and right sides. Never seen just the corners though.
crsswift70
Active member
I've read that before, but it is not something i would want to try. Please let us know what the manufacturer says.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
So lets ponder this...
The manufacturer will not offer an extended warranty on the tank unless it rests on their stand. Furthermore, they will refuse honor the warranty if they can show that the tank was not fully supported by the customer built stand... Application of a little logic would indicate that they are not going to advocate resting their tank on 4 points.
Folks, you can't cheat the physics, even if some yoyo shows photos of his tank resting only on 4 corners. The system was NOT engineered to handle the associated increase in stress. PERIOD. Will it fail? Who knows, but the chances are exponentially higher than if it were supported as designed.
Take two tires of the same model, one speed rated and one not. The speed rated tire is good for 175 MPH, the non speed rated tire for 100 MPH. Can you go 175 MPH on the non rated tire? Maybe! but the margin of safety is GONE. So the same bump in the road at 150 MPH will likely destroy the non rated tire, while the rated tire will keep you humming along.
The manufacturer will not offer an extended warranty on the tank unless it rests on their stand. Furthermore, they will refuse honor the warranty if they can show that the tank was not fully supported by the customer built stand... Application of a little logic would indicate that they are not going to advocate resting their tank on 4 points.
Folks, you can't cheat the physics, even if some yoyo shows photos of his tank resting only on 4 corners. The system was NOT engineered to handle the associated increase in stress. PERIOD. Will it fail? Who knows, but the chances are exponentially higher than if it were supported as designed.
Take two tires of the same model, one speed rated and one not. The speed rated tire is good for 175 MPH, the non speed rated tire for 100 MPH. Can you go 175 MPH on the non rated tire? Maybe! but the margin of safety is GONE. So the same bump in the road at 150 MPH will likely destroy the non rated tire, while the rated tire will keep you humming along.
uncleof6
Active member
You have to use a little common sense with this. The manufacturer will say the tank requires direct vertical support (bottom of the tank to the floor) at all four corners.
This requirement is to "prevent" folks from floating a tank in the middle of a sheet of plywood, with no direct vertical support under the corners. This is the often brought up "stand larger than the tank footprint" scenario, that we attempt to shoot down every time it comes up. The way it is put is: "The tank reqiures direct vertical support under the four corners of the tank." They do.
Common sense is not common, so it is easy to see why someone would think that you only need support under the four corners. The assumption is semantical in nature, but is an accident looking for a place to happen.
The bombproof stand design, is a 6 sided 3/4" hardwood ply box. Bombproof, provided there is direct vertical support under the four corners of the tank. No lumber required. However, with this design, the span is not "unsupported." Doors are cutouts in a single sheet (not pieced together) and this leaves a 4" - 6" "header" to support the span of the tank. More than a 3' span, you should have an additional direct vertical support under the span. Some would argue for more than a 2' span.
The bottom line is the tank needs to sit on top of the top rim of the stand, not out in the middle somewhere, whether 6" in, or 1/2" in. Using the tank as a suspension bridge is not what is being dicussed when saying "the tank requires direct vertical support under the four corners."
This requirement is to "prevent" folks from floating a tank in the middle of a sheet of plywood, with no direct vertical support under the corners. This is the often brought up "stand larger than the tank footprint" scenario, that we attempt to shoot down every time it comes up. The way it is put is: "The tank reqiures direct vertical support under the four corners of the tank." They do.
Common sense is not common, so it is easy to see why someone would think that you only need support under the four corners. The assumption is semantical in nature, but is an accident looking for a place to happen.
The bombproof stand design, is a 6 sided 3/4" hardwood ply box. Bombproof, provided there is direct vertical support under the four corners of the tank. No lumber required. However, with this design, the span is not "unsupported." Doors are cutouts in a single sheet (not pieced together) and this leaves a 4" - 6" "header" to support the span of the tank. More than a 3' span, you should have an additional direct vertical support under the span. Some would argue for more than a 2' span.
The bottom line is the tank needs to sit on top of the top rim of the stand, not out in the middle somewhere, whether 6" in, or 1/2" in. Using the tank as a suspension bridge is not what is being dicussed when saying "the tank requires direct vertical support under the four corners."
sleepydoc
Team RC
So I saw this stand when I was at Petsmart the other day - if you look carefully, you'll see that the corners are directly supported, but the cross piece isn't actually touching the top at the end where it joins the vertical. There is a top, which provides some (minimal) support, but I'm sure it's only particle board, so this stand is pretty close to what the OP was asking about! (sorry I can't remember the size; I think it was about 3' long, IIRC)
uncleof6
Active member
At some point in time, the tank will match the profile of the stand. What happens then, is unpredicitable, and there are many variables. It is less critical with a rimmed tank, than with a rimless tank. A rimless tank, at this point would be facing certain doom.
One of two causes for this condition: 1) The stand rim was not flat to begin with, or 2) the span of the stand rim is deflecting down, due to inadequate support. Perhaps a combination of both. There is no cure for the condition, other than planing the top rim, and/or adding a center vertical support. (whichever the culpret is.) Shimming it will point load it.
In the final analysis, the tank should sit square, and flat on the stand rim—with no gaps, empty or full.
One of two causes for this condition: 1) The stand rim was not flat to begin with, or 2) the span of the stand rim is deflecting down, due to inadequate support. Perhaps a combination of both. There is no cure for the condition, other than planing the top rim, and/or adding a center vertical support. (whichever the culpret is.) Shimming it will point load it.
In the final analysis, the tank should sit square, and flat on the stand rim—with no gaps, empty or full.
HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
Who said anything about advocate? They won't advocate anything that isn't their stand.
Cheating physics? Please. This is basic stuff, not free energy. You have no idea what the tank was engineered for, so your opinion is baseless.
HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
So you are going to parse the word advocate instead of the general context in order to somehow prove me wrong?... Fine: In THAT context, why would you even bother asking them if the tank can be supported only at the four corners? I mean of they are ONLY going to advocate their stand... Your statement is rather contradictory to your own actions/logic.
Yes, basic stuff. Meaning that those of us with engineering or physics backgrounds can easily understand the load conditions and design envelope. Your state is rather oxymoronic...
Lets not make this personal please
The size of the panels and the silicone joints is specified with a specific type of loading in mind, along with a safety factor. As you change the support configuration, the loading on the panels and joints changes (increases at critical points), thus "eating" into the safety factor. As you mentioned above this is BASIC stuff
As an aside, You may want to note that another poster to this thread IS a tank designer and shockingly has the engineering skills to go along with the caulking gun.
HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
Because, there is a difference between advocating and admitting feasibility.So you are going to parse the word advocate instead of the general context in order to somehow prove me wrong?... Fine: In THAT context, why would you even bother asking them if the tank can be supported only at the four corners? I mean of they are ONLY going to advocate their stand... Your statement is rather contradictory to your own actions/logic.
Who says I DON'T have a physics and engineering background? What YOU don't have is the knowledge of what these tanks are engineered for.
Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, meet pot.Lets not make this personal please
So what? Can you tell me what the safety factor is for any commercial tank? No, you can't, so your attempt at education is pointless.The size of the panels and the silicone joints is specified with a specific type of loading in mind, along with a safety factor. As you change the support configuration, the loading on the panels and joints changes (increases at critical points), thus "eating" into the safety factor. As you mentioned above this is BASIC stuff
And if this mystery poster wants to tell me the proper way to support his tanks, I'll listen to him.
jimmyj7090
aka John K
Sounds like your mind was solidly made up before you ever started this thread.
I'll give you what you want;
YES, Go for it! It'll work fine and the tank will last a thousand years, no question
I'll give you what you want;
YES, Go for it! It'll work fine and the tank will last a thousand years, no question
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