Greed in the hobby... heartbreaking

J

johnny

Premium Member
WARNING: Rant on a soapbox ahead...

So I've been in this hobby for over a decade now and I've gotta say I'm now the most digusted I've ever been.

Let me first state there are still a lot of caring hobbyists out there who are really great people... but with that being said...

The greed in this hobby has gotten out of control. I'm fine with people selling some of their frags to try to recoup some costs, but when did this become a hobby that everyone attempts to make a profit in?

I have always loved going to the frag swaps as it was an opportunity to pick up corals at reasonable prices and to shoot the bull with fellow hobbyists. But the prices have gotten out of control. Chalices for hundreds of dollars, polyps for $50 per polyp, the list just goes on.

Now the thing that just really broke my heart... I posted a bunch of my frags on fragswapper for $1 each, thinking it would be a great opportunity for people to try out some new stuff without spending a lot of $. The frags were nothing great, some zoos, xenia, monti, etc. Well, I was surprised by some of the people who asked for it... one person, a reef store owner. The other person, selling the same coral for a lot more than $1. How greedy can people get?

When I first started this hobby, I met great people at some local events. They were kind enough to give me extra frags they had, some xenia, some polyps, some montis, etc... I was just hoping to continue that chain of giving... but not so that some greedy SOB could just resell the frag and make a $20 profit.

Sick to my stomach and I'm sorry all of the true hobbyists had to read this...

Nick
 
Its very true. I've been in the hobby for about 10 years and early on at frag swaps that is what it was. A swap...I traded corals and so did everybody else. There was never a price tag on the corals. That was the early days of fragswaps. Now it has definately gotten insane. The exact opposite infact. There is almost zero trading and almost all buying.

I do miss meeting in somebodies den or living room with a few guys and having some pizza swapping corals and stories.

I fell culprit too when I saw the $1 frags and hit the request button several times. You had stuff I didn't and the price was too good to be true.

How do we get back to the old days? Is it even possible? I don't know. They are still a good way to get frags around to people who normally don't have access or don't want to pay shipping. I usually try to keep my prices reasonable. More than $10 for a zoa frag is robbery.
 
Unfortunately, I too support the zoa business in that I'm buying a few expensive polyps this go around. Nothing against the people I'm buying them from, they're actually less expensive than most other places/people. With any luck, next swap I'll be able to "sell" the same frags for $1.

I hope I at least made a first step in getting back to the way things used to be. With any luck, the people who get my frags will grow them into colonies and when time comes to get rid of a few frags... they will remember the $1 deal.

I'd guess that NCPARS has local club meetings, but probably up towards the Scranton area.

P.S.
The pom pom xenia tends to be a terrible transporter... if it doesn't make it let me know and I'm sure I'll be able to cut another piece in the near future if you don't mind heading out towards Douglassville, PA.
 
I agree as well. The days of penny frags are long gone. That's what we used to do at our events, the penny covered your time of fragging and the bag lol. Now I see other hobbyists selling stuff for upwards of 100$ to another reefer, wrong. The whole point of this hobby, in my eyes is to learn and educate about the oceans wonders, and provide husbandry for declining species in the wild, not making gigantic profits off of them. Forums have even changed now, it seems like a huge marketplace, not there is anything wrong with that, but questions and help have declined dramatically over time. I feel your pain and commend you for letting it out.
 
J I haven't done freshwater in a long time, but don't tell me they're now selling a stalk of anacharis for $50? Or maybe they call it Thyree Special Edition Watermelon Hornet Sprouts? :crazy1:

Nick
 
Fwiw, add my name to the "thoroughly disgusted with the hobby turned industry" list.

I've been at this for better than a decade too, and the changes have been overwhelming to say the least. I personally think this all started going "goofy" when Acans first became the "collectors dream". I remember rainbow Acans being offered for $2,500. So if anything the price has actually come back to earth by virtue of carving that piece up 100 times until it's barely recognizable. But it did set the wheels in motion for "the rarest is the only one to own" mentality. I never dreamed we would see single zoanthid polyps being offered at ANY price. I mean.....REALLY?

The thinking on the other side of the coin is if you don't think it's a good idea, nobody's forcing you to buy it.

I'm not.
 
As the owner of FragSwapper.com I whole heartedly agree. Initially the whole point of facilitating people to sell rather than straight trade was so that you could buy from somebody who could buy from somebody else who would buy from somebody else who would buy from you. So it's still like trading..but with more people in the process. There are other reasons too...like trying to sell enough frags to help pay for tank upkeep costs, growing a whole lot of a few corals so you can "trade up"...etc. I shudder to think my site has had anything to do with how f-ed the whole situation has gotten.

And not only have the prices gone nuts, but the pieces being sold are SOOO small that it takes forever to grow into anything big enough to re-trade. So by the time it does...you wind up wanting to sell it for the same outrageous price and become part of the problem! I'm certainly guilty of it. You justify it by saying...I had to pay $40 for it and it took a year to grow this thing.....so will somebody else will pay just as much. It's very sad. If I had gotten bigger pieces, for less of a cost, I'd have grown it out quicker to be able to resell and not feel I have to charge as much. *sigh*.. unfortunately that's not the case.

I'm also surprised/disappointed the NCPARS "pay it forward" program hasn't taken off. I offered up a nice acro, but haven't heard of any takers. Hopefully the word will get out and it will take off...that's really what this hobby should be about.

Anyway...on the brighter side...I will tell you that there are some people that I trade with "under the radar" that basically say...I got it free...so you can have it free....Kind of like an unofficial pay it forward...so it's not all bad. But it is very disheartening, I agree.
 
Now this is a great thread... I couldn't agree more. I also am lucky enough to know a few true traders(me being one of them). Some that throw free around so much that i decline some.
 
Fizz,
Fragswapper is a great tool and makes trading much much easier.

Ricunger,
I'll challenge you to grow those free corals and give them to some other lucky reefer!

Speaking of free... JustJim had given me some idaho grape cap a while ago.. it groes like crazy although I can never get it to be purple! If anyone wants a free piece... let me know! I don't have any pics, but it's an ugly maroon in my tank and I can probably snap a piece off before I head to the frag swap.

Nick
 
All the more reason when some of us in NCPARS have a local meeting people need to show up. We have had them with really poor turnouts.

Once the snow is gone and parking is easier either myself or Mary will be having a get together. It would be really nice to see some new faces.

Carl
 
johnny said:
Fizz,
Fragswapper is a great tool and makes trading much much easier.

Ricunger,
I'll challenge you to grow those free corals and give them to some other lucky reefer!

Speaking of free... JustJim had given me some idaho grape cap a while ago.. it groes like crazy although I can never get it to be purple! If anyone wants a free piece... let me know! I don't have any pics, but it's an ugly maroon in my tank and I can probably snap a piece off before I head to the frag swap.

Nick
Click to expand...
I already do... challenge completed :)
 
Back when I lived in California in the mid 90's not only did the clubs give away colonies or trade them but also fish. We even had a place we could get filtered ocean water as long as we brought containers to fill. The hobby was soooooooooo affordable then and is crazy now. I am all for people covering costs but see the current cost of things, it's unbelievable. I wish there was a place again for trading free frags, stories, pizza and spirits.
 
I agree too that costs are out of hand. When you have to pay over $300 for a Ecotech pump, a "top-rated" skimmer or even livestock I'm sure the world economy plays into price setting for some of this stuff. I have had a tank for 20+ years and just like everything else in life nothing comes down in price. I can remember Hippo Tangs for $20 now their $40 and up. Maybe simpler is better, go old school and not run tanks on the latest, expensive technology.
 
Johnny where in douglassville I used to live in boyertown and moved to douglassville pm me maybe we can hook up some time always looking for people in the hobby close to me.
 
I buy off of local reefers only. Prices are very fair. I guess if you really wanted something then you would have to shell out the cash to have it. Look at how many local people agree with the price problems, you can see the replys to this thread. We should start a NEPA buy & trade post to help one another out. Just a thought. Dont flame me please.
 
On another forum I am a member of we do this twice a year. We all get everyone's addresses etc...and one member starts the frag out. Each member receives a frag in the box, keeps that frag and then frags one of their own, boxes it up and ships it to the next person, cool part is the club pays for all of the shipping costs, plus since some of us are scattered across the country, you can get different stuff than you do locally, I love it and works great everytime, like Xmas when opening the box, never know whats in there!
 
I have another Idea! support your local retail store. How often have you seen colony's of things for close to the same price as few frags. "We" meaning North East Pa have some great Reef stores. We have also seen some great stores disappear. We all want the rare or never seen coral it's the natural progression of the hobby. All hobby's are similar in that same aspect.
 
As someone whose corals took a hit when moving my tank last year, I have to say that I appreciate having the option of purchasing frags from hobbyists. I simply do not have corals to swap.

What depresses me are all of the posts that you see on RC that mention
a) how much chaeto somebody throws away each month, and
b) that someone wants to know how to kill their "excess" hitchhiking detrivores like mini and micro brittle stars and stomatella snails, and
c) that somebody is tossing mushrooms, xenia, anthelia, yellow polyps, green star polyps, those little blue clove-like polyps, and/or palys or is looking for ways to kill such corals.
And yet there is always someone who could use one or all of these animals. Not everyone has the kind of phenomenal luck that others do in propagating these creatures. And all of these animals are sold at on-line and brick-and-mortar stores. And so they are starting to be sold at frag swaps as well. These are the things that, if you are lucky enough to have them quickly grow and multiply for you, then I think it is fair to advocate that they should be passed on for free or in exchange for the same type of substrate the frag is grown on. I hope that, one day, I will have at least one coral (or desireable algae) that will simply grow for me by leaps and bounds so that I can give pieces of it away for free.


Fizz71 said:
As the owner of FragSwapper.com I whole heartedly agree.
And not only have the prices gone nuts, but the pieces being sold are SOOO small that it takes forever to grow into anything big enough to re-trade.
Click to expand...

I have to say that I love FragSwapper.com, although it is easy for me to get a bit carried away on it. I love seeing photos of people's corals and learning a bit more about each. I'm thankful for those who take the time to list a coral on FragSwapper, post an image, and specifically detail the size of the frag that they are selling. The site is a real bonus to everyone involved -- how often is a coral unhappy about being transported and unwilling to show its true colors at a swap? Plus, I can get an idea of how much money I have to bring to a swap since I already know how much I am indebted for through the site!
 
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