Greed in the hobby... heartbreaking

It seems pretty common that people naturally try to recoup their investment in just about any hobby. People who are really into motorcycles subsidize their hobby by doing maintenance on other people's bikes - people who are really into photography hold lighting workshops and charge for portrait session..

The thing about being in this hobby is unless you are a vendor, there is very little opportunity to get this hobby to help pay for itself. I understand that once frags were cheap and now they are expensive and that sucks and all, but we might do well to stop and consider the benefits of an entrepreneurial spirit here. Higher base prices may stimulate the fragging community and ultimately make the business more competitive with an increased incentive to produce higher quality frags. It also might make fragging more popular amongst hobbiest as well. My thought is that anything that makes the community grow is a good thing. So long as frags are being passed around at basement bargain prices by people fortunate enough to afford the equipment to actually produce large quanities of corals, how is anyone to establish a thriving and legitimate fragging business? It's nice to give them away at cheap prices, but it also reduces demand and therefore the incentive for anyone to start a business.

I like the idea of regulating the prices of corals just like the diamond industry does with it's diamonds. The fear here I am seeing is that of Dutch Tulip Syndrome, where prices and demand get so disproportionately inflated that the entire market crashes.

I hear you though. You were trying to be nice and some people just don't play nice. Giving away frags to noobs or friends is a nice gesture and someone tried to take advantage of the situation and turn it into shameless personal gain. I'm sorry to hear that. I'm all for helping people out when I can.
 
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WARNING: POTENTIALLY IGNORANT COMMENT AHEAD...lol Sorry in advance for those who get offended...

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course, but this hobby is one of the most expensive you can choose. Whether its just keeping a reef or getting in depth with cameras and equipment to photograph your animals; its just that... EXPENSIVE... Lets do some generalized calculations to see if we are being greedy, just covering costs, etc. Equipment prices are given and expensive, but do any of you out there take into consideration costs not directly associated with the cost of the coral itself or equipment? Many of the hobbyists out there who are charging higher prices do many more or higher volume water changes than the average hobbyist. Just me personally; on my 40gal breeder I do 10gals a week and I also adjust the fresh seawater to have ideal calcium, alk, and Mag before doing the water change.

Also they have controllers, reactors, mobile links to check their systems when not nearby, time and money spend on finding such specimens, as well as the electrical consumption associated with these systems. With all that is considered, yes there are some corals people ask way too much for, but on the otherhand if you want LE or rare you have to pay the price. These corals have been loved, cared for, and fed everything possible to ensure that they stay awesome. Sometimes we also do not consider the cost of fragging and time a hobbyist who has these puts into their systems. I know I spend at least an hour a day on my 40gal tank. I am not saying I want paid for it, I am just trying to cover every cost associated with my frags when I have them for sale. Little subnote here... When I offer frags... They are generally cheaper.

My electric bill without the tanks would run about $65 per month... I am currently at $165 and was as high as $250 or more before removing a 175gal reef from my home. My waterbill is every three months, yippie for me at $75.00 for three months; while others are not so lucky and the cost of making RODI water is more expensive in more populated areas. Salt runs the average of $40-$60 per bucket but as high as $100 per bucket. I know some do 50gal waterchanges per week so thats about $60 per month just in salt. If you add that up and also see how often they have frags for sale then I do not think the average hobbyist with high priced frags is asking too much for them.

Also... Jason Fox Signature Series Frags for example: Has anyone ever seen the setups that guy has? He has a small fortune in equipment, water changes, and space dedicated to the operation of those growouts. You have to figure in the space required for his stuff as he is in need of paying the bills for the space in which he is using. I do not see that as making money, but a way to break even with space and all things considered. $300 frags yes sometimes, but I am sure the colony was purchased for a considerable amount more than that and it wouldn't make sense to sell every Tom, Dick, and Harry a $20 frag would it?

Just curious... How many hobbyists have a room dedicated to fish? Did you calculate how much you pay for that room a month just for your tanks? Take the square footage of the home, your room for your hobby, and the rent/mortage payment and calculate it... LOL I bet its more than you think.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone in particular here, nor am I trying to pick a fight, I just wanted to see if anyone else is seeing everything involved with some of the "rare" stuff being fragged up.

Online sales and stores... now that is a different ball of wax all together.


There are a few other comments on this thread I think would be good if started in another thread to spearhead them instead of in this thread. So I am not going to comment and get sidetracked or my post will be as long as book. ;)

 
I think the last two posts for the most part generalize part of the problem... the fine grey line between hobbyist and business.

The two examples above... fixing someone's bike... they ask for that help from their fellow hobbyist because a mechanic would be $100/hr and the hobbyist helps for beer, food, or maybe $50/hr. The photography course is either a genuine business (aka pay taxes) or they charge significantly less than the $2000 course offered at the local college.

Part of my grief isn't with the hobbyists charging $20 for a 2" frag of red planet... it's the people charging the same amount as liveaquaria, cherry corals, etc... all businesses that pay TAXES.

When someone takes their hobby and tries to make it profitable... it's called a business.

If you buy that rare coral or colony, it should be with the thought of how great it will look in your aquarium... not that you can frag it and make x amount of the frags. Unfortunately, this board has become engulfed with "hobbyists" like this.

Nick
 
As someone who still has very little coral in their tank, I feel cheap frags are an excellent way for people like myself to grow their reef. Offering inexpensive frags to local people is great for the hobby. It allows reefers like myself to advance their coral keeping skills without a huge hit to the wallet. Sure some frags are ridiculously expensive, and hopefully someday, through the skills learned with the inexpensive frags, I will feel comfortable enough dropping a car payment on one. There is reason behind some of these prices as Ricky explained in the last post. If people are willing to spend THOUSANDS to be able to grow out these rare corals they should be rewarded for it. Ferrari spends BILLIONS in the design and production of their cars. You don't expect to pick up a Ferrari part ("frag") for cheap just because it is a small section of the car ("colony") do you?

As far as people purchasing $1 frags while selling the same thing for $20, that is just wrong. They are only hurting the new reefers and not allowing the growth of the community to prosper.

Suki makes another great point as well. It shouldn't all be about fragging either. There has to be support of local stores as well. Although, I would like Suki's list of Northeast PA reef stores. :)
 
johnny said:
I think the last two posts for the most part generalize part of the problem... the fine grey line between hobbyist and business.

The two examples above... fixing someone's bike... they ask for that help from their fellow hobbyist because a mechanic would be $100/hr and the hobbyist helps for beer, food, or maybe $50/hr. The photography course is either a genuine business (aka pay taxes) or they charge significantly less than the $2000 course offered at the local college.

Part of my grief isn't with the hobbyists charging $20 for a 2" frag of red planet... it's the people charging the same amount as liveaquaria, cherry corals, etc... all businesses that pay TAXES.

When someone takes their hobby and tries to make it profitable... it's called a business.

If you buy that rare coral or colony, it should be with the thought of how great it will look in your aquarium... not that you can frag it and make x amount of the frags. Unfortunately, this board has become engulfed with "hobbyists" like this.

Nick
Click to expand...

If you are talking about the RC message board that is one thing... The NCPARS Board of Directors is another...

To which board were you referring?
 
johnny said:
I think the last two posts for the most part generalize part of the problem... the fine grey line between hobbyist and business...Part of my grief isn't with the hobbyists charging $20 for a 2" frag of red planet... it's the people charging the same amount as liveaquaria, cherry corals, etc... all businesses that pay TAXES.
Click to expand...

True that a legitimate business pays taxes, but a hobbiest fragger doesn't qualify for small business loans and tax deductions on all the equipment needed to grow the frags. I'd think it's pretty much a wash. I wouldn't suggest that somehow hobby fraggers are ruining the market. If anything they enhance it and at the end of the day still take a financial loss.

People in all situations like a return on their investments. If they can squeeze a few bucks out of their hobby to recoup just a small fraction of the money they have spent in the reef market, it's good for all parties involved. If an individual wants to charge business prices, let them. Leave it to liveaquaria to produce the higher quality frag and compete in the market. I'm sure if it were illegal to frag in your basement, the business would be cornered immediately and that same 2" frag of red planet would be $100.
 
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Heres my $0.02.im not gonna comment on how prices went up and frags got smaller over the past decade because i have only been in the hobby for a few years and im not gonna come out and say "support you lfs" because i own one.What i will comment is the price of corals and what some places(online/retail) are charging for them.If the consumers new the markup they would only buy corals and frags from hobbyists.I will not tell you what i pay but i will give you an example of something that ticked me this past month.I was a certain retailer selling selling watermelon zoanthids "colony's" on a little piece of rock with roughly 20-25 adults polyps for $69.99.i sell a 150-200 polyp COLONY for $60.After discussing this with my salesman its turn out we share the same wholesaler.Keeping the same mind frame i have never seen a coral at a wholesaler for a price larger than $75.I guess im just disgusted at the markup more than anything.

sorry for ranting and hi-jacking
 
johnny said:
Aeon... just the statement of "return on their investments" shows what I mean... I don't see my reef purchases as investments that I'm hoping for returns on.
Click to expand...


Fair enough. I suppose if one intends to spend thousands of dollars on lights and filtration systems just for fragging with the intent to sell them, then it would only be right to register the enterprise as a legitimate business and pay taxes on it.
 
Disturbed,

I think this thread has gone off in a couple of directions... all healthy debates. I will disagree with one thing... I don't have complaints about what LFS sell their corals, fish, etc for. They have a business to run, costs to cover, employees to pay, etc, so there will be markup. But I guess that's the main difference I expect to see between an LFS and a hobbyist.. I expect the LFS to have a markup, I hate to see the hobbyist have the same (or greater) markup.

All of this being said... I'll commend most of the people listing on fragswapper in that most have very fair swap meet prices, which are much lower than what the LFS would charge.

Hope I'm not ****ing too many people off with this thread... :hmm2:

Nick
 
johnny said:
I think the last two posts for the most part generalize part of the problem... the fine grey line between hobbyist and business....
Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking too. My problem with the whole situation is that the prices have gone up SO much for such a small piece that I now feel I need to charge the same amount for tiny chips or I'm a fool not doing so, but I can't compete with what's out there. Too many people are making a business out of it that the casual hobbyist is getting lost in the shuffle.

I'm not arguing the costs to maintain the systems because I know what it costs...my tank is in despair because I can't afford the salt required for the weekly water changes I'd LIKE to do on a 300g total volume system and I still don't have my CR running.

So I'm going to sell some corals this weekend...as a casual reefer...I won't have a traveling tank, I won't have anything lit, I won't look NEARLY as impressive as the other people and I won't have many (if any) impressive LE's, rare corals, or frags that will do the dishes for you, and because of that I will need to severely drop my prices to get them sold. I don't have a frag tank, or any thing mounted on pretty plugs and a place to keep them if they don't get sold so I'm hesitant to bring ANYTHING. That's why I'm saying it hurts the casual reefer. People will see what I have, and not want to pay what I paid...I have "red planet"..."Purple Bonsai"..but because my water params haven't been perfect they're a little browned out compared to the business out there with expensive systems and I really don't want to frag them if I can't sell them.

So if I try to sell a frag of my bonsia for what I paid for it, people are going to see my setup isn't as nice as the "businesses" and not take a chance on $40....however....if I had BOUGHT it for $10...I'm sure I could SELL it for $10. Right? ...or...if I wanted to invest another $4,000 in a equipment I could setup MH in my basement along with a bigger skimmer and a chiller and I could keep that bonsai looking PERFECT....but then I'd need to charge $100 for it. :)
 
shimmy_yaz said:
Suki makes another great point as well. It shouldn't all be about fragging either. There has to be support of local stores as well. Although, I would like Suki's list of Northeast PA reef stores. :)
Click to expand...


I noticed that SUKI hasn't answerd that yet so I'll give it a shot since I'm in
Scranton also. Ummmm...none. You have Pet zone in Pittston, Aqua house in Hanover that just closed their doors recently and I think I just herd of another opening in Wilkes-Barre BUT don't know the name ATM.

and then the unmentionables.... like Killco etc...:blown:

If anyone knows of another in the Lackawanna,Luzurne Counties please let me know. I would appreciate it. :dance:

Thanks
 
Wouldn't it be nice to have some kind of program where people can grow and share corals by passing them on to other reefers. With the condition that the person receiving the corals promises to share that same coral with three other people when it grows out.
Gee I wish something like that was in place. People could then share the expense of all these expensive corals. LOL
 
PerezAF01 said:
Wouldn't it be nice to have some kind of program where people can grow and share corals by passing them on to other reefers. With the condition that the person receiving the corals promises to share that same coral with three other people when it grows out.
Gee I wish something like that was in place. People could then share the expense of all these expensive corals. LOL
Click to expand...

:)What a great idea.Funny no one thought of that yet :)

seriously,Good discussion guys
 
Fizz... I'll buy your purple bonzai for $10 :rollface:

Dan/Perez... fills us in boys!

BTW, all the corals I'm selling for $1 this year, are corals I bought at the frag swap last year... I had some of Dan's eagle eyes I bought last year that I wanted to frag, but the damn things grew towards the back of the tank and for the life of me I can't get to them... or pretty much see them lol

Nick
 
Seaweed, when I lived in Clarks Summit and Harveys Lake there were no stores that I knew of. Something Fishy in Allentown, may not be too far for you to take a weekend trip to. And once you're there, you might as well hit up TFP also! There are probably some good stores in Philly, but I don't get down that way at all.

Nick
 
johnny said:
Fizz... I'll buy your purple bonzai for $10 :rollface:

Dan/Perez... fills us in boys!

BTW, all the corals I'm selling for $1 this year, are corals I bought at the frag swap last year... I had some of Dan's eagle eyes I bought last year that I wanted to frag, but the damn things grew towards the back of the tank and for the life of me I can't get to them... or pretty much see them lol

Nick
Click to expand...

Myself, Tony, Al, and Fizz have all signed up to give away corals. Three of us have rare zoas and Fizz is giving away some sps. So far I know Tony has given away one piece and someone has contacted me for a zoa but other than that the program has had no success that I have heard of here. I have discussed it with one guy and our concensus was that the problem with the program is the simple fact that it's free and must be passed on free. People think that if they care for it, grow it, and frag it then they must be compensated for all that plus its rareness.
 
I received a PM just now from a fellow reefer in this thread. I just had to stop by and say, I'm standing at my PC applauding the OP for having the Skeletal Calification to stand up and say this. I agree with you 100% and thousands of other reefers do as well. It's nothing more than outright greed and it is killing this hobby. We were having this same heated but respectful debate on another site as we speak. All of these lame excuses have been shot down one by one as there is no excuse. Turning a profit on a zoanthid or palythoas polyp for example which is only worth $ 1 to $ 3 dollars per polyp, to giving it a name, calling it rare, making up some stupid lineage, buying a $ 600 digital camera with a super macro lens, cranking up the actinics, creating false hype all over the internet, and that same polyp is now being sold for $ 20 to hundreds of dollars for a single polyp which might and could very well die tommorrow. I have heard every single excuse there is, none of them holds water, pun intended.

I truly hope this thread and all the others on this topic will begin to spread like wildfire.

Mucho Reef
 
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Wow! Like Mucho, let me say that I applaud not only the OP, but all those who have posted into this thread, with the courage to say that enough is enough. And beyond that to speak of and come up with some real solutions. Please keep it up.

rogersb said:
Myself, Tony, Al, and Fizz have all signed up to give away corals. Three of us have rare zoas and Fizz is giving away some sps. So far I know Tony has given away one piece and someone has contacted me for a zoa but other than that the program has had no success that I have heard of here. I have discussed it with one guy and our concensus was that the problem with the program is the simple fact that it's free and must be passed on free. People think that if they care for it, grow it, and frag it then they must be compensated for all that plus its rareness.
Click to expand...

rogersb, and all the rest, I applaud you for not just talking about it, but being willing to step forward and do something about it. Hopefully such an attitude can spread from a local level to an international level. Keep it up guys!

disturbed, thank you my friend for speaking up - greed does not exist only amongst the hobbiests. If retailers are buying cheap frags, and marking them up over 100% or buying from their wholesalers and marking stuff up over 100% and they are able to do it, something is definitely wrong with the system. I've heard arguments that business must make a profit in order to stay in business, that they have overheads to meet, employes to pay etc. All of that is true, however, very few business in this country are able or need to make 100% profit or more on their retail sales. Most how attempt to do so, quickly go out of business.

To those who want to argue that they have to pay for salt, equipment, etc. etc. let me just say this, and please understand that this is only my opinion. When you got into this hobby, you made a commitment as a hobbiest to provide proper lighting, environment, and suitable conditions for those living organisms that you brought into your home. If you find yourself in the position of trying to justify your expensive prices as a means of keeping your hobby going, you need to take a good, hard look in the mirror and ask yourself this question. Am I a hobbiest or am I a business? If you are a true hobbiest, your overhead should not be a concern. I have nothing against those who make a little/fair amount off of their hobby. What I am opposed to is those who feel they need to pay for their "business" by making a large profit off of their fellow hobbiests. If you bought a polyp for $50, the first time you make $50 off that poyp, whether it be by getting $50 for a single polyp or $10/polyp for 5 polyps or $2/polyp for for 25 polyps, you have payed off your investment. Anything beyond that that you make off of that polyp is profit, pure and simple. If its a fair amount and being used to continue supporting your hobby fair enough. If its being used to continue buying new and fancier and more expensive equipment so you can buy, grow and sell more expensive corals for even more money, then there is another word for it entirely.

Just my $.02 worth, take it for what its worth. And again cuddos to those who have the courage to speak out and do something about it!
 
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