Green Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus) Breeding Log!
- Thread starter mwp
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mwp
In Memoriam
LOL Krypticol, I already posted those links last week from the first spawn I tried in it! Here they are again for anyone else who missed them:
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN2780.mov
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN2781.mov
I hope I get better numbers too...admittedly the propeller stirrer was in a "hard to observer" location for my buddy. AND he hasn't seen baby mandarins before, so it's POSSIBLE there was a good hatch and he didn't notice it...afterall when you try to explain that they look like little sperm that swim in short bursts...well...I'm not 100% convinced we didn't have ANY hatch, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was again low (i.e. 1 or 2 only). I may just have to start trying to raise them in batches of 1 or 2 or 6....grumpy about that propsect to say the least!
Thanks for the encouragement! If the propeller doesn't work, I may go back to the kriesel arrangement that DID produce the one good hatch as well as trying a few other variations that have been mentioned in prior posts.
FWIW,
MP
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN2780.mov
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/nanoreef/DSCN2781.mov
I hope I get better numbers too...admittedly the propeller stirrer was in a "hard to observer" location for my buddy. AND he hasn't seen baby mandarins before, so it's POSSIBLE there was a good hatch and he didn't notice it...afterall when you try to explain that they look like little sperm that swim in short bursts...well...I'm not 100% convinced we didn't have ANY hatch, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was again low (i.e. 1 or 2 only). I may just have to start trying to raise them in batches of 1 or 2 or 6....grumpy about that propsect to say the least!
Thanks for the encouragement! If the propeller doesn't work, I may go back to the kriesel arrangement that DID produce the one good hatch as well as trying a few other variations that have been mentioned in prior posts.
FWIW,
MP
Just adding to the brain storm, instead of something MISSING in the food would it be possible to have something IN EXCESS ?
Is it common to have somethng exceding the needs in reef fish food ? Just reading Moe´s book on the prchid dottyback and thinking of his problem with the BBS...
Anderson.
Is it common to have somethng exceding the needs in reef fish food ? Just reading Moe´s book on the prchid dottyback and thinking of his problem with the BBS...
Anderson.
Dude, in my humble opinion, you are obsessing about the equipment end of things and ignoring the eggs themselves. With the money and effort you have spent on whirly-gigs, you could have purchased a microscope and sorted out why the hatch rate is so low. You need to be following the egg development under a scope every couple of hours. Find out what the fertilization rate is. Find out why eggs are clumping. Find out why eggs are sinking. Shouldn't fertile and viable eggs be separated and float all the way up to hatching?
-steve
-steve
mwp
In Memoriam
Anderson, it's definitely possible. Apparently some seahorses don't spawn well if they have too much HUFA in their diets, thus why Ocean Rider offers both Vibrance and Vibrance II (the later not having the Hufa enrichment)...
Stephen, I haven't spent even CLOSE to what a microscope costs on the various incubation setups...well OK, I DID drop the $100 on the shoddy, leaky and totally useless mini hatching jar from A Eco and they have completely IGNORED my emails asking for return instructions (in other words, I'm VERY TICKED at the company and disappointed with their service). Besides, I do have the 10X loop - please review my earlier posts in the thread for pictures of the eggs and early larval development. It's not like there's a huge change or development of a full blown larvae in these eggs...they simply stay clear and hatch VERY QUICKLY (12 to 16 hours according to Sadavoy). Unless I'm going to stay up all night and skip work the following day to follow larval development, it ain't gonna happen
The other reason I haven't worried TOO much about a microscope is that up until this point, I have been utilizing methods that go against the grain of EXPERIENCED mandarin breeders. They've all used the propeller stirrer method, which up until this latest spawn I haven't been able to attempt AND observe (and darnit, I have to go to work today too, so I won't know what's up until 7 or 8:00 PM....they *should* hatch while I'm gone although ambient air temps dropped to 67F overnight, so they may have gotten a chill (which could bump them off too).
Not saying I don't need or want a microscope, just saying that I'm trying to rule out everything I can without one.
FWIW,
MP
FishGuttz
New member
I'm struck by the fact that the eggs rise and then fall. In the wild wouldn't they expect to land on something: briopsis, caulerpa, algae mat, muddy river bottom? Then squirm around in that stuff for a few days before hunting for food.
I hope things start going better for you! seems like the list of variables keeps getting longer and longer!
I hope things start going better for you! seems like the list of variables keeps getting longer and longer!
Mr. Ugly
New member
Matt,
Re scope - check out the QX5 toy computer microscope. It's about $70-80 bucks. Received mine from Digital Blue the other week.
Check out the latest vid at 200x magnification of 4 day old frogfish larvae.
http://www.putfile.com/mr_ugly
Re scope - check out the QX5 toy computer microscope. It's about $70-80 bucks. Received mine from Digital Blue the other week.
Check out the latest vid at 200x magnification of 4 day old frogfish larvae.
http://www.putfile.com/mr_ugly
mwp
In Memoriam
Larvae are Free Swimming at 12-16 hours, and feeding around 36 hours...data from Sadavoy that definitely held true in my 1 good hatch. It seems the eggs start sinkin en-masse around the time they should be hatching....i.e. this morning I had no eggs on the bottom of the propeller stirrer setup.
FWIW,
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
Stephen, I think you missed something...AE won't be getting my business ANYTIME SOON AGAIN EVER as I'm currently out $100 already as a direct result of doing business with them in the first place (and their total lack of customer service). Product was shipped damaged and not functional as advertised to boot. Pretty ticked. $200 to spend on a microscope is not a luxury I can afford OR explain to Renee 
Take a look at the pictures early on of the eggs under development...sure they're not at 100X but pretty much the larvae hatch with nothing more than a "tail" hanging off the "egg" which becomes a bit more elongated. I'm not sure what additional info I would gain by watching the eggs under a scope other than to see if they are fertile early on or not as Ed has suggested prior.
Mr. Ugly, I've considered that scope in the past due to its low cost and capabilities...I may just have to bite the bullet. It's still cash I shouldn't be spending and well, ANY microscope that shows up that wasn't "Free" I'll have some serious explaining to do! I can explain alternate incubators due to the fact that up to this point I haven't tried anything that's "supposed" to work AND NONE of the incubation setups has required any major investment (other than the aforementioned AE product).
Gonna keep an eye out for any kind of good deal I can find.
Just antsy to get home and see if we had any hatch today.
MP
Take a look at the pictures early on of the eggs under development...sure they're not at 100X but pretty much the larvae hatch with nothing more than a "tail" hanging off the "egg" which becomes a bit more elongated. I'm not sure what additional info I would gain by watching the eggs under a scope other than to see if they are fertile early on or not as Ed has suggested prior.
Mr. Ugly, I've considered that scope in the past due to its low cost and capabilities...I may just have to bite the bullet. It's still cash I shouldn't be spending and well, ANY microscope that shows up that wasn't "Free" I'll have some serious explaining to do! I can explain alternate incubators due to the fact that up to this point I haven't tried anything that's "supposed" to work AND NONE of the incubation setups has required any major investment (other than the aforementioned AE product).
Gonna keep an eye out for any kind of good deal I can find.
Just antsy to get home and see if we had any hatch today.
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
BTW, I WISH I could freely redistribute this article as it's the best frame of reference. Copyright is copyright though. Here's the full title and authorship:
Early development of the mandarinfish,
Synchiropus splendidus (Callionymidae), with
notes on its fishery and potential for culture
YVONNE SADOVY, GEORGE MITCHESON and MARIA B. RASOTTO
Some quick quotes of notes on the development from the aforementioned article:
0 hours - Oval yolk sac, 0.85 ± 0.01 at
longest diameter.
12 hours - Posterior end of notochord much produced beyond last myomere
In other words, the tail shoots out within 12 hours or so..but again, a range of time was given as 12-16 hours based on temp. I'm not sure what really useful info I'll get by staying up all night to observe them up until this "hatch" (at which point they already swim). The only thing that might be helpful would be to examine them almost immediately after spawning (i.e. right after they are all collected) and look for early signs of viability - that way we can determine if I'm STARTING with viable eggs and the incubation is going awry, or if they're doomed from the get go...
MP
Early development of the mandarinfish,
Synchiropus splendidus (Callionymidae), with
notes on its fishery and potential for culture
YVONNE SADOVY, GEORGE MITCHESON and MARIA B. RASOTTO
Some quick quotes of notes on the development from the aforementioned article:
0 hours - Oval yolk sac, 0.85 ± 0.01 at
longest diameter.
12 hours - Posterior end of notochord much produced beyond last myomere
In other words, the tail shoots out within 12 hours or so..but again, a range of time was given as 12-16 hours based on temp. I'm not sure what really useful info I'll get by staying up all night to observe them up until this "hatch" (at which point they already swim). The only thing that might be helpful would be to examine them almost immediately after spawning (i.e. right after they are all collected) and look for early signs of viability - that way we can determine if I'm STARTING with viable eggs and the incubation is going awry, or if they're doomed from the get go...
MP
rsman
New member
I just spent a few minutes re-reading this thread because ive been busy and have not kept up as much as I should.... and its a short reply that maybe ill be able to extend tonight when i get home from work 
so going in order of my empty head
* i dont mind you or anyone else sharing any of my pm's or any parts of them that i have not explicitly said Not to. I grew up on the internet. if i dont want it getting out, i dont let it out in a PM for someone I have not seen in person.
* the eggs do not settle, good eggs do not rise and fall, the larva mandarins do settle but, do not settle down until well after hatching MWP has not seen that age range yet.
* proper eggs should float, and SHOULD be clumped together
* after watching the vids I have to ask which propeller did you settle for, reason being is the zagi prop is a very high pitched prop, it *looks* from the vids like that is a relitively flat pitched prop. only real difference is probibly that you dont have to keep the prop soo close to the top of the water.
* unfirtle eggs become white and sink,
* I think the injection from a 9 guage needle sounds fun. not entirely doable, but fun to watch anyways.
so going in order of my empty head
* i dont mind you or anyone else sharing any of my pm's or any parts of them that i have not explicitly said Not to. I grew up on the internet. if i dont want it getting out, i dont let it out in a PM for someone I have not seen in person.
* the eggs do not settle, good eggs do not rise and fall, the larva mandarins do settle but, do not settle down until well after hatching MWP has not seen that age range yet.
* proper eggs should float, and SHOULD be clumped together
* after watching the vids I have to ask which propeller did you settle for, reason being is the zagi prop is a very high pitched prop, it *looks* from the vids like that is a relitively flat pitched prop. only real difference is probibly that you dont have to keep the prop soo close to the top of the water.
* unfirtle eggs become white and sink,
* I think the injection from a 9 guage needle sounds fun. not entirely doable, but fun to watch anyways.
mwp
In Memoriam
RSMAN, thanks for the comments - they're greatly appeciated. I agree, I think a higher pitched prop could help move more water...this thing really doesn't seem to move enough at all.
So here's the twist perhaps. Incubation at room temp with the prop produced a ZERO hatch rate as of 9:35 PM this evening. The water went CLOUDY and the eggs are a soupy mess, clumped together, caught on the propeller, caught on everything, still mostly FLOATING and NONE have sunk this time around. Even with the propeller being just a couple MM below the surface, the surface water has completely stopped moving.
So there are two variables in this setup I'd like to revisit one more time before officially having to sit down and start considering that our eggs are no good from the get-go. First, in my tired state last night I never got around to putting in the Methelyne Blue. 2nd, I incubated at room temperature which may have been a relatively quick drop by as much as 10 degrees F overnight. So one more batch will go in the propeller setup, back in the larval tank, with some MB. In the past I've had hatches without MB and haven't had any water cloud up...something was different this time around.
One last note, I got to talk to my buddy who watched the fish over the weekend - he found ONE larvae in the propeller setup on Friday evening - that's no better or worse of a hatch rate than any of the other attempts.
Consider this one a flop (again). Time to break it down and sterilize it - I think my quick rinse may have not been enough to clean it up properly. I'm ALSO going to try making some STERILE saltwater for incubation...perhaps that may help.
I'm playing with a TON of variables here...not enjoying this project at the moment. I may just have to stick to mini desktop kriesels that are easy to setup and tear down while trying to work on one of my other "easier" species - if I can raise and sell a batch or two of GBGs or Bangaii's I could have more than enough cash to purchase the microscope and perhaps even try to set up a 2nd m/f pair of mandarins (perhaps swap out some pairings and see if fertility doesn't go up).
Disheartened for now...
MP
So here's the twist perhaps. Incubation at room temp with the prop produced a ZERO hatch rate as of 9:35 PM this evening. The water went CLOUDY and the eggs are a soupy mess, clumped together, caught on the propeller, caught on everything, still mostly FLOATING and NONE have sunk this time around. Even with the propeller being just a couple MM below the surface, the surface water has completely stopped moving.
So there are two variables in this setup I'd like to revisit one more time before officially having to sit down and start considering that our eggs are no good from the get-go. First, in my tired state last night I never got around to putting in the Methelyne Blue. 2nd, I incubated at room temperature which may have been a relatively quick drop by as much as 10 degrees F overnight. So one more batch will go in the propeller setup, back in the larval tank, with some MB. In the past I've had hatches without MB and haven't had any water cloud up...something was different this time around.
One last note, I got to talk to my buddy who watched the fish over the weekend - he found ONE larvae in the propeller setup on Friday evening - that's no better or worse of a hatch rate than any of the other attempts.
Consider this one a flop (again). Time to break it down and sterilize it - I think my quick rinse may have not been enough to clean it up properly. I'm ALSO going to try making some STERILE saltwater for incubation...perhaps that may help.
I'm playing with a TON of variables here...not enjoying this project at the moment. I may just have to stick to mini desktop kriesels that are easy to setup and tear down while trying to work on one of my other "easier" species - if I can raise and sell a batch or two of GBGs or Bangaii's I could have more than enough cash to purchase the microscope and perhaps even try to set up a 2nd m/f pair of mandarins (perhaps swap out some pairings and see if fertility doesn't go up).
Disheartened for now...
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
HOLY CRAP - I gave it just one more look...basically in the amount of time it took me to write the above at least 4 or 5 babies hatched out! Wait a second, that's right around our 2nd best mark already.
I think I'm going to separate out the hatchlings into a new container with clean water and leave the stirrer running. Low temps = longer time to hatch...duh. Even if it's just 4 or 5 I think I'm going to at least TRY to raise them up in a small container...T Iso, Tetraselmis and SS Rotifers are on standby!
MP
I think I'm going to separate out the hatchlings into a new container with clean water and leave the stirrer running. Low temps = longer time to hatch...duh. Even if it's just 4 or 5 I think I'm going to at least TRY to raise them up in a small container...T Iso, Tetraselmis and SS Rotifers are on standby!
MP
mwp
In Memoriam
WHOO HOO - we just broke into double digits on larvae - 10 and counting.
Guess what...ALL the eggs, save a couple, are ON THE BOTTOM. I'm suspecting that PERHAPS the eggs SINK in PREPARATION for the hatch. I've spent the last few minutes blowing water down along the side of the bowl to stir the eggs up off the bottom...it seems that it's either STIRRING UP newly hatched larvae or perhaps even stimulating the hatching.....
MP
Guess what...ALL the eggs, save a couple, are ON THE BOTTOM. I'm suspecting that PERHAPS the eggs SINK in PREPARATION for the hatch. I've spent the last few minutes blowing water down along the side of the bowl to stir the eggs up off the bottom...it seems that it's either STIRRING UP newly hatched larvae or perhaps even stimulating the hatching.....
MP
BrianPlankis
Premium Member
Awesome man! Good to hear
B.
B.
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