Greenhouse emmisions.........are we doomed by 2050

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Rachel Carson's Silent Spring: Environmentalist Mythology Killing Us Softly
by Steven Brockerman (August 11, 2002)

Theirs is the disease you don't hear about on the nightly news. Newspaper editorialists, too, are silent about the death toll from this ailment -- nearly 9 ½ million people since 1999, of which 8½ million were pregnant women or children under the age of five. No, the disease isn't AIDS. It's mosquito borne malaria, and we've had the means for wiping out this affliction for over a century. However, thanks to environmentalist mythology, the tool, DDT (dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane), has been banned in most countries worldwide.

The ban on DDT, like the modern environmentalist movement itself, grew out of the book, Silent Spring, by Rachael Carson. As almost any school child today can parrot, Carson claimed DDT thinned the eggs of birds. Pointing to a 1956 study by Dr. James DeWitt published in the Journal of Agriculture and Food Chemistry, Carson wrote: "Dr. DeWitt's now classic experiments [demonstrate] that exposure to DDT, even when doing no observable harm to the birds, may seriously affect reproduction."

DeWitt, however, concluded no such thing. Indeed, he discovered in his study that 50% more eggs hatched from DDT fed quail than from those in the control group.

Following Carson's lead, hippie environmentalists began claiming that raptor populations -- eagles, osprey, hawks, etc. -- were declining due to DDT. They failed to note that such populations had been declining precipitously for years prior to the use of DDT. Indeed, according to the yearly Audubon Christmas Bird Counts, 1941 to 1960, years that saw the greatest, most widespread use of DDT, the count of eagles actually increased from 197 in 1941 to 897 in 1960. A forty-year count over roughly the same period by the Hawks Mountain Sanctuary Association also found population increases for Ospreys and most kinds of hawks.

Finally, after years of study, researchers at Cornell University "found no tremors, no mortality, no thinning of eggshells and no interference with reproduction caused by levels of DDT which were as high as those reported to be present in most of the wild birds where ‘catastrophic' decreases in shell quality and reproduction have been claimed" ("Effects of PCBs, DDT, and mercury compounds upon egg production, hatchability and shell quality in chickens and Japanese quail").

Carson, her book's affected prose designed to create optimum public panic, heralded, too, a coming cancer epidemic among humans. Her assertion was based on the high incidences of liver cancer found in adult rainbow trout in 1961 -- a result, not of DDT, but of a fungi produced carcinogen, aflatoxin.

Once again, environmentalists followed Carson's lead. A 1969 study ("Multigeneration studies on DDT in mice.") concluded that mice fed DDT developed a higher incidence of leukemia and liver tumors than unexposed mice. Epidemiology data of the preceding 25 years, though, showed no increases in liver cancer among the human populations in the areas where DDT had been sprayed. Upon further examination of the data, moreover, researchers discovered high incidences of tumors in the control group, too. Apparently, both groups had been feed food that was moldy, contaminated by aflatoxin.

Since then, in 1978, after a two-year study, the National Cancer Institute has concluded that, indeed, DDT is not carcinogenic. Even more recently, a study ("Plasma organochlorines levels and the risk of breast cancer") published in the New England Journal of Medicine in October 1997 found nothing to indicate that the risk of breast cancer is increased by exposure to DDT or DDE (a byproduct of DDT).

None of this evidence, though, would have swayed William Ruckelshaus, head of a brand new Environmental Protection Agency in 1971. Ruckelshaus not only refused to attend EPA's 1971-72 administrative hearings on DDT, but also refused to read even one page of the 9,000 pages of testimony. Not surprisingly, Ruckelshaus ignored the findings of the hearings' judge -- ""DDT is not a carcinogenic … a mutagenic or teratogenic hazard to man -- and banned DDT anyway. It's not surprising because William Ruckelshaus was a member of the Environmental Defense Fund -- later his personal stationery would have printed on it the following boast: "EDF's scientists blew the whistle on DDT by showing it to be a cancer hazard, and three years later, when the dust had cleared, EDF had won."

Since 1971, pressured by specialized environmentalist organizations like the International Pesticide Action Network, much of the rest of the world has banned DDT, too. Those countries now rely on pesticides that are neither as effective nor as safe as DDT. Meanwhile, the death tolls from malaria in tropical Third World countries silently climbs. Heedless of this, environmentalists are now pressuring governments to preserve wetlands, i.e., swamps, which are the foremost breeding grounds of disease carrying mosquitoes. One would have to conclude, given the facts, that environmentalists are either insane or intent upon eradicating every human being from the face of the planet. At a UN sponsored earth summit in 1971, a delegate's remark gives us the answer: "What this world needs is a good plague to wipe out the human population."

If the death toll from malaria begins to mount in this country, we'll certainly hear about it on the nightly news. Malaria will be blamed, of course, but the real culprit will be environmentalist mythology, which has been killing us softly for decades.
 
Mosquitoes, DDT, and Human Health

A leading entomologist describes the death and suffering caused by insect-borne diseases, and tells why we must bring back DDT.

(Excerpts of text from Fall 2002 issue of 21st Century)

by J. Gordon Edwards, Ph.D.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Links to other related articles:

To Control Malaria, We Need DDT!

The Lies of Rachel Carson

Bring Back DDT, and Science With It!

Anopheles, the mosquito that carries malaria, which today kills 2 to 3 million people a year.
(Pan American Health Organization/World Health Organization )

During the war in Europe, in 1944, we went to sleep every night while being fed upon by bedbugs and fleas, and there was no way to escape them. We had heard about “cooties” (body lice) causing typhus, which killed more than 3 million people in Europe and vicinity during and after World War I.
One day, I was ordered to dust every soldier in our company with an insecticidal powder that had just been received. For two weeks I dusted the insecticide on soldiers and civilians, breathing the fog of white dust for several hours each day. The body lice were killed, and the DDT persisted long enough to kill young lice when they emerged from the eggs.

Fortunately, no human beings have ever been harmed by DDT. I later learned that the material was produced by a German chemist, Othmar Zeidler, in 1874. He had made hundreds of chemical compounds but he never suggested uses for any of them. Sixty years later, in Switzerland in 1939, Dr. Paul Müller was seeking chemicals that might kill insect pests, and he followed Zeidler’s written directions for preparing several compounds. One of them was a compound that Zeidler had labelled dichlorodiphenyl-trichloroethane. Müller called it “DDT,” and in 1948, he received the Nobel Prize for his work with that chemical.

Dr. Joseph Jacobs later described his role in producing the first DDT made in the United States. At Merck & Company in New Jersey, he was assigned the task of duplicating Zeidler’s procedure, but on a much larger scale. He commandeered a huge glass-lined reactor, and produced the first 500 pounds of DDT made in the United States. An Army truck rushed it to an airport, and it was flown to Italy, where it halted a developing epidemic of typhus in our troops. The Surgeon General telegrammed thanks from President Roosevelt, and stating: “It is estimated that 5,000 lives were probably saved by destroying the typhus-carrying body lice infesting our soldiers.”1

After the war, I entered Ohio State University to study entomology. Insects are the most abundant forms of life on Earth; fortunately, only about 1 percent of them compete with human beings for food, fiber, and space. A small part of that 1 percent threatens our health with stings or bites, and a few transmit serious diseases.

I received my Ph.D. for research on beetles, and was hired to teach entomology at San Jose State University in California. There I spent much time studying parasitic insects, and taught medical entomology courses for more than 30 years. In addition to louse-borne typhus, our students were required to learn about diseases caused by mites, ticks, fleas, kissing bugs, black flies, chiggers, sand flies, eye gnats, tsetse flies, and mosquitoes.




DDT has saved more millions of lives than any other man-made chemical.
(Courtesy of Gordon Edwards)

Insect-borne Killer Diseases
At least 80 percent of human infectious diseases are arthropod-borneâ€"transmitted by insects, mites, or ticks.2 They have caused the death of hundreds of millions of people by infecting them with the pathogens that cause typhus, bubonic plague, yellow fever, malaria, dengue fever, sleeping sickness, encephalitis, elephantiasis, leishmaniasis, and yaws.
Flea-borne Diseases
Typhus. In Europe there have been more than 150 typhus epidemics. During the Thirty Years’ War, typhus reduced the population from 30 million to just 13 million, killing 14 times more people than died in battle.

Scientists named the pathogen that causes typhus Rickettsia prowazeki, after two researchers who lost their lives because of their work: While studying a Mexican typhus epidemic, Howard Ricketts died of typhus three weeks after becoming ill, and Stanislas von Prowazek died of typhus in Poland.

The Saturday Evening Post, in an August 1942 article titled “Blitz Plague,” referred to the body louse as “the mass killer which has slaughtered 200 million people in Europe and Asia alone, diverted the stream of history, and done more than any other single factor to determine the outcome of wars.” It reported:

This year, in the Polish town of Vilna, where typhus once killed 20,000 of Napoleon’s troops retreating from Russia, railway employees were forbidden to approach trainloads of infected German soldiers returning from the Russian front. When infected, a person’s fever often reaches 107 degrees, with excruciating headaches and delirium. Mortality rates may be as high as 70 percent.

Bubonic plague. In the 14th Century, fleas that sucked blood from sick rats ingested pathogenic bacteria that were later named Pasteurella pestis. When those fleas then bit humans, they transmitted bubonic plague to them. That plague (the “Black Death”) killed one-fourth of the population of Europe and two-thirds of the population of the British Isles.



U.S. Department of Agriculture

In World War II, troops and refugees were dusted with DDT powder to kill the lice that carried typhus.

Mosquito-borne Diseases
Mosquitoes have been the worst of all the disease carriers!
More than 3,000 species of mosquitoes have been described in scientific journals. Most of them are in tropical areas, where as many as 150 species have been found in a single square mile. The United States contains about 170 species, Canada 70, and Arctic lands less than two dozen. In the Canadian Arctic, researchers who bared their arms, legs, and torsos in an experiment reported as many as 9,000 bites per minute. Unprotected human beings there could lose half of their blood in two hours, and die. Hundreds of cattle and horses have been killed by just such exsanguination, in our southeastern states.

Yellow Fever is caused by a virus transmitted by Aedes aegypti mosquitoes. Perhaps the disease was brought into America with slaves in the 1500s, but it also could have originated in monkeys in Central America, which still harbor it.

The name of this disease refers to the yellowing of skin that results after the infected mosquito bites. After a 10-day gestation period, there is a sudden onset of fever, with aching, nausea, bleeding from digestive tract, lungs, nose, and mouth, and severe vomiting (frequently bloody). Mortality rates from yellow fever often exceed 50 percent of the cases.

In 1542, Hernando DeSoto suffered with it and almost half of his troops died of it, in what is now the state of Florida. In 1741, England sent Admiral Edward Vernon with 27,000 men to Mexico and the Louisiana Territory. They retreated after 20,000 were killed by yellow fever. In 1802, Napoleon’s brother-in-law, Charles LeClerc, came to the Louisiana Territory with 33,000 soldiers, but gave up after 29,000 of them died of yellow fever.

Napoleon had envisioned a French colonial empire in the New World, but after such severe losses he did an about-face and sold the Louisiana Territory to the American colonists for $15 million, nearly doubling the size of our country. Some historians say that the sale was a result of yellow fever killing 40,000 French troops.

In 1900, in Cuba, the U.S. Yellow Fever Commission investigated the disease, under the guidance of Walter Reed, James Carroll, Jesse Lazear, and A. Agramonte. Their research with human volunteers proved that the fever was transmitted only by the bites of Aedes aegypti mosquitoes, rather than by personal contact.3 Attempts to eradicate those mosquitoes almost succeeded in Central America and the Caribbean, but failed in southeastern United States, where Aedes aegypti still abound. Their larvae thrive in junk yards and auto wrecking yards, where they live in used tires and other small containers of water.

Yellow fever vaccines have been available since 1942, but must be kept refrigerated. That is a problem in hot countries, especially because Freon was unwisely banned by pseudo-environmentalists in the great ozone hoax. More than 400 million people have been given the vaccine.

In Central America a pretty native mosquito, Haemagogus spegazinii, transmits the virus from monkey to monkey in the tree tops. If a tree falls in the jungle and human beings are nearby, the Haemagogus can transmit the virus to them. These individuals may then serve as reservoirs of the fever in their villages.

Encephalitis Viruses. Mosquitoes transmit many other kinds of viruses, causing illnesses such as Eastern Equine Encephalitis (EEE), Western Equine Encephalitis (WEE), St. Louis Encephalitis (SLE), Japanese B Encephalitis (JBE), Venezuelan Equine Encephalitis (VEE), and West Nile Encephalitis. An epidemic of SLE in 1933 devastated St. Louis and several other cities as far east as Louisville, Ky. More than 1,000 cases there resulted in 266 deaths.

Japanese B Encephalitis has been very deadly in Japan and Korea. In 1924, Tokyo had 6,000 cases, and 3,800 died. In 1948, Japan had 8,000 cases and 4,750 died. The vector, the Asian Tiger mosquito (Aedes albopictus), is now well established in the United States, and has already transmitted fever viruses to children in southeastern and midwestern states, and in Texas. Transovarial transmission may pass encephalitis viruses from female mosquitoes to their larvae, via infected eggs.

Dengue Fever is also known as “Breakbone Fever” because the virus causes extreme aching of joints, even the joints between plates in the skull. Many kinds of mosquitoes transmit the virus, but Aedes aegypti is the major vector. In Guam, 98 percent of the American troops were infected. Some of my students served with the U.S. Navy and had been infected with dengue. They told me that the pain was “indescribable,” and one said: “When I had malaria I was afraid I might die, but when I had dengue I almost wished that I could die.” The only medication they had was aspirin, which gave very little relief.

In addition to the fever and other symptoms, the dengue virus causes great pain in the eyes, “like someone has his fingers behind your eyeball and is trying to pull it out.” A first exposure to dengue is not often fatal, but re-exposures are more serious, with about 15 percent mortality caused, especially in children

The Asian Tiger Mosquitoes, Aedes albopictus, are efficient carriers of the dengue virus. When they first invaded Brazil, there were only 6 dengue cases in Rio de Janeiro (in 1985). In just one year, the mosquitoes spread the fever to 350,000 people! In 1985, some of these mosquito larvae were shipped into Houston Texas from Japan, in old automobile tiresâ€"they can breed successfully in as little as a quarter inch of water. In Evansville, Indiana, they were also breeding in piles of old tires. The piles were sprayed with insecticides every day, for 11 days, but swarms of adult mosquitoes still emerged. In early July 2001, Tiger Mosquitoes were found in the San Francisco Bay area of California. They had just arrived from China, in a shipment of live bamboo plants. The larvae had matured in the water surrounding the plant roots. This mosquito will probably extend its range from coast to coast, and many encephalitis cases should be anticipated. . . .



The author, featured in Esquire magazine, September 1971, eating a tablespoon of DDT, a feat he repeated publicly almost every week in his public campaign to show the safety of DDT.
(Courtesy of J. Gordon Edwards)

DDT: Safe, Effective, and Inexpensive
To control Anopheles mosquitoes, DDT was sprayed on inside walls once or twice a year. In 1959, spraymen applied 60,000 tons of DDT to the inside walls of 100 million houses. There was never any need to wear masks or protective clothing while doing DDT spraying. No adverse effects were ever experienced by the 130,000 spraymen or the 535 million people living in the sprayed houses.8
In house spraying, the amount applied was 2 grams of DDT per square meter of wall, every 6 months.9 Also, no wildlife was injured by DDT in those areas. The World Health Organization Director concluded, “The discontinuation of the use of DDT would be a disaster to world health.”

Montrose Chemical Company workers in California, who wore no masks or goggles, were never harmed by their constant exposure to DDT. When their fatty tissues were analyzed, they were found to contain up to 647 parts per million (ppm) of DDT residues. The fatty tissues of the general population at that time contained only 5 or 6 ppm of DDT.10 There were no cancer cases in those workers, even after 1,300 man-years of heavy daily exposure to DDT. Dr. Edward R. Laws, of the U.S. Public Health Service, found that those Montrose workers still were healthy after 10 to 20 years of that exposure.

In addition to its effectiveness, DDT is inexpensive. The cost of spraying in 1959 was $205,000, but if substitutes had to be used, malathion would have cost $637,000, and propoxur would have cost $1,762,000 for the same control. A 1.5 oz. whisky jigger full of 70 percent wettable DDT covers 144 square feet of wall surface, killing all mosquitoes that land there during the next six months.

In the 1960s, the World Health Organization tested more than 1,300 pesticides, seeking effective substitutes for DDT in mosquito control. Only four approached DDT’s effectiveness: Malathion, Aprocarb (Baygon), fenthion, and fenitrothion, but all were more hazardous to humans than DDT and were 4 to 20 times more expensive than DDT.11

Because, over the years, I kept hearing propagandist claims that DDT is toxic to people, I studied all of the relevant scientific and medical literature. Here I mention only some details on DDT’s safety:

Evidence That DDT Fights Cancer
• Drs. Charles Salinskas and Allan E. Okey reported that DDT in rodent diets inhibited development of induced mammary cancers and leukemia.13

• A.E. and E.K. McLean determined that after animals had ingested DDT, the highly toxic aflatoxins they had been fed were not fatal, perhaps because they were converted to non-toxic metabolites by the liver.14 DDT was also known to induce the formation of hepatic microsomal enzymes which, in turn, inhibited the growth of tumors and cancers.

Dr. Wayland Hayes performed tests for the U.S. Public Health Service, feeding human volunteers up to 35 milligrams of DDT in their food every day for 18 months. (The average human intake of DDT in the United States at that time was about 0.03 mgs per day, or 0.36 mgs per year.)15 No adverse effects resulted, either at the time of the study, or during the next 10 years.

As a result of such studies, I felt that it was safe for me to ingest DDT. I was delivering addresses to various audiences almost every week. I carried a commercial box of DDT onto the stage, dug out a tablespoon of DDT (about 12 mgs), swallowed it, and washed it down with water before beginning my talk about DDT’s lack of toxicity to vertebrate animals. Esquire magazine, in September 1971, pictured me ingesting a tablespoon of DDT. The text explained that I had “eaten two-hundred times the normal human intake of DDT, to show it’s not as bad as people think.”

At the same time, the pseudo-environmentalists were going wild against DDT. Clifton Curtis of the World Wildlife Fund, for example, wrote that “DDT is so potent that as long as it is used anywhere in the world, nobody is safe”â€"and provided no data to back up his assertion. Dr. Gilbert L. Ross, of the American Council on Science and Health, characterized Curtis’s remarks as “typical of the dangerous environmental disinformation masquerading as science that has been stirring DDT hysteria ever since the 1960s.” Ross pointed out that “Extensive scientific studies have not found any harm to humans, even during the massive overuse of DDT in agriculture in the 1950s and 60s.” Furthermore, the scientific reports show that there is no indication of DDT use harming people, birds, bird eggshells, or other vertebrate animals.16

During the 1960s, the World Health Organization proposed the possible eradication of malaria, worldwide, and malaria control was achieved in areas with a population of 279 million people. Thirty-six formerly malarious countries totally eradicated the disease. The U.S. National Academy of Sciences stated in 1970:

To only a few chemicals does man owe as great a debt as to DDT. In little more than two decades DDT has prevented 500 million human deaths, due to malaria, that would otherwise have been inevitable. . . .17




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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11519233#post11519233 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
Number two is based on a correlation between untestable models and unproven base temperatures. How does a correlation, however aquired, prove causation?

Now lets here how the models are tested, how high a confidence factor is used, how the temperature estimates are accurate, and then that last big jump,,,,,,,causation. This is not science.

I think you better shout this to the world of science then fella. Samtheman has solved it,after years and years of research hes solved it. You will be collecting that Nobel Prize very soon,I can feel it. :eek1:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11519206#post11519206 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
I would hope not. Not thinking for yourself is what keeps the environmental movement alive. Running around picking up bottles while the earth dies, makes many feel better.
Try doing some research on polar bears and not from the New York Times. You will be suprised.

There numbers have plummeted since the 80's becauase of shrinking ice and early ice break up. In one area however in the last couple of years numbers are up. This is because the governments have banned hunting them and harp seal pups obvisouly both benefiting the bears greatly.

I find it hard to believe how you can still cling to little peices of misinformation to try and support your argument. sadly for you the argument is over where it counts. although sadly for me,action is far too slow coming and I doubt it ever will come quick enough,not untill its too late.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11519419#post11519419 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rossini
There numbers have plummeted since the 80's becauase of shrinking ice and early ice break up. In one area however in the last couple of years numbers are up. This is because the governments have banned hunting them and harp seal pups obvisouly both benefiting the bears greatly.

I find it hard to believe how you can still cling to little peices of misinformation to try and support your argument. sadly for you the argument is over where it counts. although sadly for me,action is far too slow coming and I doubt it ever will come quick enough,not untill its too late.

Thanks for all the data! I knew you wouldn't just respond with unsupported opinion. Thanks for taking the time to do the research.
 
http://www.polarbearsinternational.org/bear-facts/


Polar Bear Status Report

Polar bears are a potentially endangered species living in the circumpolar north. They are animals which know no boundaries. They pad across the ice from Russia to Alaska, from Canada to Greenland and onto Norway's Svalbard archipelago. No adequate census exists on which to base a worldwide population estimate, but biologists use a working figure of 20,000 to 25,000 bears with about sixty percent of those living in Canada.
 
Rossini,

Since we don't know how many there are, how do you have any confidence in your poisition that the population is declining?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11519317#post11519317 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
Order Back Issues Index 1988-1999 Advert. Rates Contact Us
21st Century, P.O. Box 16285, Washington, D.C. 20041 Phone: (703) 777-6943 Fax: (703) 771-9214
www.21stcenturysciencetech.com Copyright © 2005 21st Century Science Associates. All rights reserved.

Checking out their website, in their statement of purpose they sure appear to be an advocacy group.

Um, not exact the best source of information.

That said, I see no reason to drag DDT into this discussion, unless you want to admit that we've handled global warming + have decided not to throw that theory out ;)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11520167#post11520167 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MiddletonMark
Checking out their website, in their statement of purpose they sure appear to be an advocacy group.

Um, not exact the best source of information.

That said, I see no reason to drag DDT into this discussion, unless you want to admit that we've handled global warming + have decided not to throw that theory out ;)

But remember, if the group is an Environmentalist one or claims to be, the data must be accurate.

Quit trying to attack the messenger, and respond with facts that disput the allagations.
 
Rossini - thanks for your facts backing up your claims. Until you put some numbers up to back your never ending hyperbole, I consider you an uninformed poster.
 
How about putting together a cogent argument that is more than cut + pasted text from advocacy sites?

There's a big difference in between major peer-reviewed journals and web-based blogs/advocacy groups [whatever `side' they are on].
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11520432#post11520432 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MiddletonMark
How about putting together a cogent argument that is more than cut + pasted text from advocacy sites?

There's a big difference in between major peer-reviewed journals and web-based blogs/advocacy groups [whatever `side' they are on].

So to post on a fishboard, I must do major research on peer-reviewed articles. I don't have acces to most such articles, since they require joining professional organizations or paying fees to access them. You just posted without doing so. Are you my example?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11519206#post11519206 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
I would hope not. Not thinking for yourself is what keeps the environmental movement alive. Running around picking up bottles while the earth dies, makes many feel better.
You seem to be under the impression that environmentalism is a new phenomenon, when it's been around for thousands of years. Many Native Americans based a large part of their culture around their land ethic. The environmentalist view is not new and doesn't need to be "kept alive", it's a very rational way to live.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11520620#post11520620 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
So to post on a fishboard, I must do major research on peer-reviewed articles. I don't have acces to most such articles, since they require joining professional organizations or paying fees to access them. You just posted without doing so. Are you my example?
If you want to talk about reef aquaria, I don't think anyone asked for peer-reviewed articles. That is, if you're posting about fish on a fishboard. But we're not ....

If talking about other subjects, IMO I don't see why asking for scientific articles vs. web-postings is an outrageous thing to ask.
At least when claiming that the articles/studies others cite are incorrect, I guess I'd expect to have similarly scientific work if we are to agree that a theory is bunk.


And if you don't have access to the articles, why are you so quick to dismiss what you admit you haven't read?

Especially when people who have read them seem to think very different things about their validity than the non-readers.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11520786#post11520786 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MiddletonMark
If you want to talk about reef aquaria, I don't think anyone asked for peer-reviewed articles here. That is, if you're posting about fish on a fishboard.

But if talking about other subjects, IMO I don't see why asking for scientific articles vs. web-postings is an outrageous thing to ask.

And if you don't have access to the articles, why are you so quick to dismiss what you admit you haven't read?
Especially when people who have read them seem to think very different things about their validity than the non-readers.

Would you give me some peer-reviwed articles to back-up your opinions above. What kind of study addresses what people who read peer-reviewed studies think vs. those who didn't? Please, this should be interesting. I am glad you wern't just giving opinions.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11520305#post11520305 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
But remember, if the group is an Environmentalist one or claims to be, the data must be accurate.

Quit trying to attack the messenger, and respond with facts that disput the allagations.
The DDT argument should be dropped, as most of us don't really care and there is some evidence that it isn't as bad as they once thought. DDT's use to fight malaria is valid if it's found to be relatively safe, and Central and South America is starting to use it again anyway, but I see no need to use it here because there isn't any threat of mosquito borne disease. Like I said, let's drop it.

Regardless, you're right, environmental groups need to be taken with a grain of salt as well, BUT they often have legit research to back up claims, whereas that site you linked to doesn't as far as I can tell. Read the mission statement for websites, it's the first thing I do.

For example: 21st Century Science & Technology magazine challenges the assumptions of modern scientific dogma.

That first sentence alone tells me that this site is way out of the mainstream and needs very solid evidence to support the claims they are making. Evidence that they don't seem to have for many issues.

Also, please stop pasting entire articles, it muddies up the thread and we have no way of knowing where you got it from most of the time (which I'm sure is intentional on your part, as the stuff you post is not usually of very high standards, and you know it).
 
Sure, but I'll need a few days to dig them up.

As for studies about people who read peer-reviewed vs. not ... I don't know of a study.

But if you haven't read the scientific literature you claim is bunk, how do you claim it's bunk?
[don't tell me some pundit told you to think that, unless you want me quoting the Sierra Club and other opposing pundits .... my take is that we need to get away from advocacy/pundits when discussing SCIENCE, as advocacy/pundits only matter when it's all opinion IMO]
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11520817#post11520817 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
Would you give me some peer-reviwed articles to back-up your opinions above. What kind of study addresses what people who read peer-reviewed studies think vs. those who didn't? Please, this should be interesting. I am glad you wern't just giving opinions.

I've been following this thread for a while.

Sam, greenbean has given you a plethora of scientific data supported by well done scientific research in an extrememly patient manner.

Chris
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11520786#post11520786 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MiddletonMark
And if you don't have access to the articles, why are you so quick to dismiss what you admit you haven't read?

Especially when people who have read them seem to think very different things about their validity than the non-readers.
Thank you. Quote of the month. I think I'm going to put this in my signature. You kind of shot yourself in the foot, didn't you samtheman?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11520933#post11520933 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell
The DDT argument should be dropped, as most of us don't really care and there is some evidence that it isn't as bad as they once thought. DDT's use to fight malaria is valid if it's found to be relatively safe, and Central and South America is starting to use it again anyway, but I see no need to use it here because there isn't any threat of mosquito borne disease. Like I said, let's drop it.

Regardless, you're right, environmental groups need to be taken with a grain of salt as well, BUT they often have legit research to back up claims, whereas that site you linked to doesn't as far as I can tell. Read the mission statement for websites, it's the first thing I do.

For example: 21st Century Science & Technology magazine challenges the assumptions of modern scientific dogma.

That first sentence alone tells me that this site is way out of the mainstream and needs very solid evidence to support the claims they are making. Evidence that they don't seem to have for many issues.

Also, please stop pasting entire articles, it muddies up the thread and we have no way of knowing where you got it from most of the time (which I'm sure is intentional on your part, as the stuff you post is not usually of very high standards, and you know it).

Again, attacking the messenger doesn't change the message. Was Silent Spring based on science? It appears not.
Now these same people want us to quit using energy, because the "think" it might be responsible for .04 C over the last 100 years. Maybe! And none of the death mongers are riding bikes. Why believe those who say do as I say, not as I do? Lead by example. Get a coat, sell your car, and shut up.

Gosh I didn't know you ran this forum. Are there any other posting rules that I am not aware of.
 
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