Group Buys - PLEASE read!

[FiberLux]

Group Buys - Good or Bad.......

Okay, so we've had a bunch of group buys over the past year and I've participated in at least two of them. so, I'm asking whether they make sense or not???

As your new president, I'm asking for your input, so we can decide how to go forward on this subject. Our LFS don't like group buys for very obvious reasons.

In a recent thread, I posed the question to those participating in a specific buy, but group buys are a bigger issue that Chicago Marine Aquarium Society needs to consider as a group.

Our LFS support CMAS because we support them. I enjoy receiving my CMAS discounts when I shop and want to continue getting them, along with other support they give us, such as raffle items, places to have meetings, help getting speakers and their generally good counsel.

As I listed in the other thread, group orders do not offer any benefits that we can't get locally. I've spoken to several of our LFS, who would be thrilled to either fill our orders directly or handle a group buy for us.

When we group order everyday aquatic stuff online, we:

Take business away from our local CMAS supporters
Miss out on CMAS discounts available from our LFS
Don't see your livestock before purchasing - Most of our LFS will properly acclimate the livestock before selling to us.
Take shipping risks that we wouldn't have with LFS
Have to make special arrangements for picking up when it arrives.
I'm sure there are more, but these are somegreat reasons to buy locally

Our LFS support CMAS because we support them. By doing group buys, we risk losing our supporting LFS. I for one, think we have the best LFS of any market........

Please give me your feedback on this important subject.....

Boyd

 

[mhurley]

Boyd,

I wont chime in here since my membership has lapsed and my opinion can be viewed as biased based on my role with RC. But I applaud you even taking up this discussion with the club. It is a discussion many other clubs avoid like the third rail.

 

[squibley2]

OK I will be the first one to start on this. The major reason that I participate in group buys from online vendors is the huge price difference. And I mean HUGE (There are stores that are cheaper but even then there is a price difference.) I was at a store 2 days ago looking for one of the items that I put on the group buy list and at the store it was 5 times the price. (That is not an exaggeration it really was 5 times the price)

 

[Illuminati]

I bought my last group of fish online because one LFS could not get a specific pseudochromis that I wanted. I bet I am still "On the list" when it comes to getting that fish from them (7 months now) where I can (and did) go to www.marinecenter.com and order the fish from them very easily (and for only $20).

Which stores are willing to do group buys for us? That's important to know so we can judge their livestock and abilities to actually pull it off.

 

[Caragol]

I buy 90% from LFS'. There are a few that I really like and the owners know me by name but the high local prices can be a turn off. I'm getting ready for a group buy soon, but to be honest, I haven't been fair in offering the buy to local stores to see if they can come close, and I'm feeling bad about that after your post. But as much as I want to support local stores, it can be too much when you're ordering a lot at once (of course, I just learned that I should have been haggling).

Some of us will always have to do what they can to afford what they can, we chose an expensive hobby. For others it may mainly just be an awareness issue (which is why I appreciate your post).

So which stores can we turn to for our group buys?

 

[ppurcell]

Basically, I interpret this issue as the LFS's are asking the CMAS membership to not use group buys. Here are some initial thoughts I have on the subject. I'm sure there will be a lot of debate and lots of disagreement about the types, severity and liklihood of impacts which occur in each category.

Benefits of group buys to the CMAS Membership:
- reduced costs (potential significant savings)
- specific availability of particular items
- minimizes the need to shop around for the "best" price on something needed.

Possible downsides of group buys to CMAS membership:
- stores may have to further increase their costs in order to meet revenue targets due to decreased volume or profit margin on stock sold in store.
- long term negative impact on LFS store inventory or stores which will be unable to stay in business
- stores may withdraw their CMAS discount program

Benefits of ban on group buys for CMAS Membership:
-Potentially better or continued discounts offered by CMAS supported LFS's (will they improve their discounts if CMAS bans group buys?)

Downside of ban on group buys for CMAS Membership:
-Less opportunity to reduce expenses on a very expensive hobby.
-Group buys will still probably occur, but may be driven "underground"
-Depending on how vigorously this is enforced, it could have a negative impact on CMAS membership.

Benefits of ban on group buys for LFS's:
-LFS's believe more products will be purchased locally. In reality, instead of a group buy many will just order from the Internet on their own and forgo the group buy because it will still be cheaper than the LFS.

Downsides of ban of group buys for LFS's:
-None really. Other than possible boycot of LFS's by militant free thinking CMAS membership because of attempts to control their purchasing options.

 

[Naperville Reef]

hold on a second here Boyd. in my group buy thread you asked me to explain why i am initiating a group buy with an online vender and not an LFS and at the same time you are CURRENTLY participating in a group buy yourself and have participated in at least one other this year.

HYPOCRITICAL to say the least.......

 

[svb57]

I have been in this hobby two and a half years now and have bought directly from on line stores, have been involved in 4 group buys, have purchased directly from numerous LFS, and purchased from other hobbiests. I believe they all have there place.

If the LFS would like to "bid" on taking group buys, when they are available, I think that would be a GREAT idea. Even if the price was some what higher then going to on-line stores for group buys, I would think most of us would purchase from the LFS. I agree we NEED the LFS to stay in business. However, there are times when the cost is the driving issue.

This is my 2 cents worth .

Thanks
Jim Mc

 

[RandalB]

Boyd,
Are you talking about livestock or dry goods group orders here? Because I can't say I've EVER seen an item at a LFS, CMAS supporter or not, that was the same or cheaper than you could get it on line. As a point of fact, I can't say I've ever seen any store even get close.

It's all about price to me. I have no loyalty to a LFS, CMAS supporter or not, that is marking up Livestock and Drygoods a couple of hundred percent just because some elements of the market can support it. I understand they need to feed their families, but so do I.

It's even more absurd when you consider most of these outfits are getting their stuff from the same 2 or 3 wholesalers, so they are all getting their merchandise at almost the same price. I know, I see their price lists.

As a CMAS member, I'd be interested in hearing exactly what contributions the CMAS supporter LFS outfits in the area have made over the last year. Maybe then I'd be more interested in supporting them.

JMHO,
RandalB

 

[svb57]

Naperville Reef,

Boyd points out in his thread he has participated in group buys. I think that "Boyd" is acting as a hobbiest. The "Boyd" that is asking if group buys are good or not is acting as the CMAS Pres.

Again my 2 cents.

Thanks
Jim Mc

 

[MrMexReefer]

Downsides of ban of group buys for LFS's:
-None really. Other than possible boycot of LFS's by militant free thinking CMAS membership because of attempts to control their purchasing options.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Very well said Phil.

 

[Naperville Reef]

Jim-

I understand what he is doing with this thread but here is his comment to me in the other thread

"Rob, Please help me understand why you are looking to do a group order from an online vendor when everything you have listed can easily be ordered through at least six of our LFS?? "

i guess i have a problem with him questioning my actions when he is currently doing the same thing, especially when he knows the answers to his own question.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8887406#post8887406 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by svb57
Naperville Reef,

Boyd points out in his thread he has participated in group buys. I think that "Boyd" is acting as a hobbiest. The "Boyd" that is asking if group buys are good or not is acting as the CMAS pres.

Again my 2 cents.

Thanks
Jim Mc

 

[FiberLux]

MHurley, Thanks Mike!

As far as the lapse in your CMAS membership, we'll work on ways to improve the benefits ofthe CMAS membership offers, so it becomes as important as changing smoke detector batteries! :lol:

squibley2, Okay, I've had similar experiences like that. What about if we (CMAS) maintained a group buy list that members could add to as needed. For instance, we might decide to do invertebrates in January and we go to one of the LFS to make the buy for us.

colinadam, I also have purchased livestock online in the past, especially some of the rarer wrasses and coral frags. I'm now finding that our LFS have access to much more that they carry in the store displays. You might be on the waiting list with one LFS, but there are probably others that could get it.

ccaragol, Until I got involved in CMAS and worked as Liaison to the LFS, I felt exactly as you do. I've had good experiences at many of our LFS and a few less than good ones too!

Here's what I'm asking...... Work with us (CMAS Board) by coming to the Jan 20 meeting and discussing it with us. Let's figure out if we can establish something locally that works. I'm betting we can get something set up that'll take care of 80% of those instances.

In the meantime, put together your wish list and we can do some shopping (locally). It might surprise you what we can negotiate! :smokin:

Thanks for listening!

Boyd

 

[svb57]

Rob,

Read your group buy thread after submitting my comments here, sorry!

He still does bring up a good issue.

Boyd - has any of the LFS contacted you as CMAS Pres and brought this subject up? If so what was thier solution, other then not placing group buys, which we all know will not stop with out alternatives.

If there are LFS stores that have contacted you, ask them if they would be interested in being able to "bid" on group buys, if it is okay with "Reef Central" rules!

Jim Mc

 

[bboersma79]

I would let people do what they want, if the LFS want more business they can advertise or promote running their own group buys on their own.

The bottom line is that most LFS will never be able to sell items for the same price as most on-line vendors so if price is the most important metric (which applies on most dry goods/equipment) then the LFS are just never going to get that business.

I also think group buys are a big part of the local reefing community and encourage networking and allows many of us to go out and meet other reefers and see their systems which wouldn't happen if everyone just met up at a LFS.

In closing I think the onus is on the LFS to draw in customers and not in CMAS dictating rules, etc. limiting the options of its membership.

 

[Naperville Reef]

i agree jim. it is a great topic to discuss. and the fact is i will support an LFS as often as possible.

but Boyd's initial post to me seems to be very judgmental and i really did not appreciate it. if i misinterpreted Boyd's intentions then i certainly apologize, but i have read his post several times now and i don't think his post was appropriate.

 

[squibley2]

I agree I don't see any LFS coming close on price, and in fact several of them I wouldn't care if they did I would not purchase from them. This is not the rule but the exception. I do buy a lot of stuff from LFS and there are some that I will not walk into.

 

[squibley2]

Hey Rob I don't think Boyd meant any harm with his post, I do feel it might have been worded better but I don't see any malicious intent in it.

 

[bboersma79]

I think the fact that the LFS are worried about things and broach the issue with CMAS shows that CMAS can be a pretty powerful organization. I am sure the LFS that are regularly spoken highly of on RC here do much better business than the others and genereate the majority of their sales from CMAS/RC board members.

CMAS should be focused on providing a great forum for discussion, networking and educational experiences for the membership but also could encourage LFS to improve their conditions/care/practices, etc

 

[jjjimmy]

I am not a CMAS member so take my comment with a grain of salt if you like.

I have bought livestock and dry goods from both online vendors and many of out LFS's. I use all of the recourses available to me for a couple of different reasons.

1. Product availability. Quite often several of the LFS's in our area will not have the product or piece of livestock that I am looking for. As far as dry goods, not every LFS sells every manufacturers products. When that happens, I go online.

2. Customer service. I think that far to many people in this great hobby are like a drewish princess (from Spaceballs) in that they will not quantify customer service into the price of the product they are purchasing. Lip service is real easy to get over the phone (online) but when you are face to face with some one, how you (the customer) is treated is paramount. If you are not treated well you will leave, period.

3. WYSIWYG. Seeing what you are buying in person is much better than seeing a picture of what you are buying provided that your LFS has what you are looking for.

4. Meeting other hobbyists. One can meet other hobbyists by participating in a group order or at a LFS. whichever you like is your preference.

I see in this hobby far to often people that really shouldn't be in it (i.e. can't afford it). Really people, this is a very expensive hobby. If you didn't realize that going into it then it is your own fault and don't b**** about prices. If you can't afford the equipment to properly take care of the livestock that you wish to keep, don't start. If you do not have the time to maintain your aquarium, sell it to some one who does and use the money to get into a cheaper hobby.

I am almost sorry if that sounds rude and cold but that is the way that it is and that is the way the world is.

If you want a cheap, warm and fuzzy hobby, start going to church.

Jimmy