Grouping Flame Angels

A

ataller

New member
I am not sure what exactly came over me, but I decided to see if I could make a trio of Dwarf Flame Angelfish out of my single. I think seeing the great work that Paka is doing with the c. interrupta, is probably what got me thinking.
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I have had my flame for a couple years now, with no issue. He is not all that big, probably only around 3", his dorsal fin is quite pointy, and as far as I have been able to research, a solo dwarf angel usually ends up a male. So lets assume he is a male.

LFS had some really nice 1.5"-2" flames. I think that if they were slightly smaller that would be better, but it is what it is. I am fully prepared that I may have to take most of my LR out to catch them if need be.
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The three of them have been together now for 3 days:

Day 1 did not go well for one of the new additions. Not only did my resident flame pick on it, but my large red velvet wrasse did as well. I kept the light off for all of day 1. That seemed to help. I also added a piece of LR where the new addition was cowering which seemed to help as it gave him a place to hide. The 2nd of the new flames was barely chased. She managed to find a pretty sweet uninhabited cave to hang out in which is what I think made the difference.

Day 2, much better, a little chasing from the original flame but not too much. I kept the lights on pretty much the whole day.

Day 3, I do not see anymore serious chasing / biting. Occasionally I will see the submissive posturing from the new additions, which is encouraging.
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Thoughts: I am confident that at least one of the new flames is a match. The other I am still undecided. There was very little actual damage done with all the chasing on day 1. A couple nipped fins here and there but everyone is looking great.

I notice that my original flame is much more orange, is this colour shift often observed in captive situations? Is there some food I am not providing them with ? I feeding Spectrum pellets and mysis.


Here are some pictures, I tried to take really nice shots and failed :)

Male:
9704703390_7363ab2167_z.jpg


Accepted "Female":
9701472793_204e74f964_z.jpg


Questionable "Female":
9701467007_3d2324aac9_z.jpg



Adam
 
Questionable female looks male to me... If you don't have/use a QT, then at least use an acclimation box to try to prevent the 'day 1' problems
 
Some points:

(1) I do have an acclimation box, I did not use, I was afraid of sticking two relatively aggressive fish in a small box with no where to escape. I feel like that would have been a recipe for disaster. Fight club with fish if you would. For this I should have two acclimation boxes, (which I do not)!

However... should one not expect some sort of aggressive behavior when the hierarchy is being established? Even if I were to use acclimation boxes, do you not think there needs to be some show of "might" to be able to establish dominance? Posturing, nipping, and what not?

(2) I looked around and did find some who were of the opinion that though it is much slower than the female to male, it is possible for a male to turn into a female. Has this been confirmed or debunked?

(3) When should I expect to see aggression ramp up again if I have 2 males and a female? Right now everyone is very mellow. Don't get me wrong, I agree that it is entirely possible that I have 2 males.

Adam
 
According to your profile page, you have a 50g tank...
IMO ...
If that's true , you should return the 2 new flames.
If you have a larger tank, you should return the 'new' male.
If you have a much bigger tank, you should exchange the new male for another female.

It is my belief that the pointed ANAL fin is the distinguishing feature. Your 'accepted female' pic clearly shows the rounded anal fin of a female
 
Oh I have a 130G rimless (48x30x22) display with probably another 150 gallons in the basement sump fishroom. I think I calculated everything at around 300G of water once. Water quality should not be a problem, and since my tank is pretty deep 30 inches front to back, there is a good amount of surface area for aqua-scaping.

My profile must be 6 years old.

Oh wanted to add this too:

What is the protocol for adding more to the harem in the future? Can I just keep adding females? Do I have to take them all out and then put them all back in to confuse them?

Adam
 
Some more information on Bi-directional sex change.

I found an article on coralscience.org

<quote>
Recently, it was found that Centropyge ferrugata males change back to female after being dominated by a larger male. They reversed to a female state within 47-89 days. Not only did they change sex, their appearance changed as well. Angelfish display what is called sexual dichromatism, or sexual dimorphism. This means that males and females look different (humans are a very nice example). Male C. ferrugata angelfish have a specific colouration of the dorsal fin. After the male to female transition, even the dorsal fin changed back to that of a female.
</quote>

Ferrugata can cross with loriculus, so it is not unreasonable that if there is a male loriculus being dominated by another it could change back within 50-90 days.

My plan right now is to observe my trio, and if the new male is left alone healthy and eating, I will give it a chance to change. If it looks like it is being put at risk by the dominant male I will take it out!

I might even find a 3th female to add.

Adam
 
Very intresting forum ill be tagging along on this one was wondering if a video can be posted to see how fish interact with each other.
 
Sure that is a good idea, my DSLR can take video.

Next time I am at home during the day I will take a video!
 
very nice fish! im new to the hobby and this is one of the fish i hope to get. i got a couple of noob questions for you if dont mind!? lol

1. is this a very aggressive fish?
2. i've read it will nip at coral, so if im planning on doing softies and some mushrooms should i not get this fish?
3. any special feeding for this fish?

thanks!!!
 
I am no expert by any means but here are my experiences.

(1) Flames are not the most aggressive but are also not the least aggressive dwarf angelfish. I had a multifasciatus that was very timid, and I have heard the pygmy's, like agri are very aggressive. So I would put them in the middle.

It depends on your tank makes. They are certainly aggressive to other dwarf angelfish males.

I would be hesitant to get one if you already have another dwarf angel.

(2) Like most people, I have been 50/50 with dwarf angels and nipping coral. There really is no way to tell until you have one in your established reef. If you are going to get a dwarf angel and put him in a reef, do so knowing you may have to take everything out to get him out / use a fish trap.

(3) I have always fed my fish a stable of New Life Spectrum pellets, and supplement with frozen mysis. This has served me well.



PS: I think I saw the male and the female doing their dance at the top of the water column, which is very encouraging. I will try and capture it on video.
 
ok. well im just getting everything in to setup. ill probably start with two chromis once my tank is cycled. ill wait like two months then im planing on getting the flame angel. after that ill add a coral to see if the flame nips at it
 
Here is a video I took of them, not amazingly high def or anything. It was my first time uploading to youtube.

You can see the original male and the female dancing and posturing at the surface a bit.

To be honest, mostly they all just sort of ignore each other.

I thought it was going to either be a war, or they would be inseparable. So far they don't really care each other are there.

Here is the video:

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Now I can see it... Very nice, flames are very active, I guess they really like that music!

:rolleyes:
 
I have never had a dwarf interested in clams. Knock on wood. I did have one that loved acans. A coral beauty, had to give her away.

I am just learning too, but yes it looks like a rounded anal fin is a female.

Since I have added the two new flames the original male has grown much larger, pointier and more colourful anal and dorsal fins. The new suspect subdominant male has a pointy-ish anal, and the female is rounded.

I will keep updating over time success or failure.

I have confidence because the subdominant male has his own bachelor pad cave off to the side (look at the lr mound on the right).

I would like a traditional harem of 1 male to x females. If I find some females maybe I will trade .
 
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