Guess the Phosphate level

[Dolmo5000]

Not to get to technical but I feel that the concept of phenotypic plasticity can really add to this discussion. Think of it as a single organisms ability to change their physical self to allow it to live in different environments. For example, any 2 human individuals are capable of living long, healthy lives at both sea level and 12k up in the mountains. After a few years of living at high altitude the number of red blood cells (carriers of O2) per unit of blood is higher than the person living at sea level. The ability to change like this can happen instantly or over long periods of time. And since we have been talking about the bacteriological side of things, we the hobbiest can observe individual bacteria change at the community level. For example, you start a sps system and like many including my self at the moment, decide to do your darnedest to export all that n and p if you can. Many have lots of success with this strategy, and I have a sneaking suspicion that it has to do with the relatively short time frame from dry tank to colorful reef we shoot for. If we were willing to take the other approach and go the other rout it wouldn't happen near quick enough for us, lol. The whole time, it's not only the total number of bacteria that might be changing like we think of most commonly, but the way each bacteria changes to allow it to live in the system. Fish, coral, shrimp, take your pick. They all do the same thing. Biggles, is there some way you might be able to incorporate this dimension into your diagrams? Lol. Good paints.

 

[Thales]

Apologies for posting the silly pic and going off topic in your thread mate, anything that prompts reefers to stop being sheep is a good thing so i'll read with interest what you guys discuss and how it can benefit the hobby in general hopefully :thumbsup:

I loved the pic! I love it when discussions ramble a bit and hate it when people sometimes feel the need not to post unless they have the 'right' answer. In other words, post away!

 

[biggles]

Incorporate......into my diagram........ listen Richard, i don't just knock these bloody things out willy nilly mate - hours of painstaking design brainstorming goes into these things before i'm happy with the final result. :artist:
Thales i'll be sure to follow and contribute when i can mate. One thing however, i don't think it's fair that Richard can just make up words like 'phenotypic plasticity'..........:spin2:

 

[Dolmo5000]

Aaaaa... But I'm a scientist. I can make up what ever word I want. One of very few fringe benifits. Lol. Biggles, How's it down under at the moment? Man I want to go to Australia!!!

 

[biggles]

It was lovely weather here yesterday Richard........

Today we had a cool change and it was only 42.........

Thales, i like your remark ' If you are spending time and money adding or taking something away from your tank, and you stop adding it or taking it away and there is no difference, why continue adding it?'

I've always wondered why if something can be accomplished with less input and expense many reefers choose a much more complicated route seeking to accomplish the exact same result. I am not talking of specific 'looks' if you like such as the pastel colors achieved with zeo type methods etc as i can see the need in such cases but the majority just want healthy colorful corals and tbh most would be happy with any type of color be it pastel and paler or deeply saturated pigmentation.
The majority of new reefers are organising their carbon and GFO reactors etc and running them from day one of the cycle, obviously they're reading what has become the norm and following what the majority do just as i did when i returned a year ago and discovered the word phosphate plastered everywhere here and so suddenly after years of not even testing for phos i just jumped on the bandwagon.
When i read your remark i realised i'm just as guilty as everyone else i think is doing stuff just because others do..........my corals look no different now to how they always have without using GFO so boom ! just like that you cost Rowa some future sales of rowaphos - i can easily add a DSB to the sump or more live rock and the tank will adjust accordingly. It's called 'buggerall technicalicity' since we're allowed to make stuff up out of thin air like Richard does.....:strange:

 

[Thales]

I must point out again that at this point I am making no husbandry recommendations.

 

[Thales]

They majority just wanting happy healthy corals is what has enabled people to buy solutions in a bottle rather than growing their understanding of what may be going in in their glass box. We all fall for it at one time or another. We all want to feel like we are doing something, and pouring something into the tank feels like doing something, and that feeling is important.

 

[Spyderturbo007]

My corals have always been pale and I have chased my tail for the last 18 months trying to find a solution. I buy a beautiful frag, put it in my tank and within 2 weeks its a pale shadow of itself. The only thing I haven't tried is to increase my nutrient levels. My bioload is very small and I have never seen NO3 or PO4 in my tank. It has always read 0ppm.

I stepping out on a limb here and started dosing NoNO3 on Monday. During a discussion with TMZ, he also advised that I remove my GFO and allow the PO4 to come up a little as well. We'll see what happens with my coral over the next few weeks, but if they color up to half of what yours are Thales, I'll be dancing in the streets.

You can check out my thread here that has some pictures of my poor little corals. :sad2:

 

[kevin_e]

My corals have always been pale and I have chased my tail for the last 18 months trying to find a solution. I buy a beautiful frag, put it in my tank and within 2 weeks its a pale shadow of itself. The only thing I haven't tried is to increase my nutrient levels. My bioload is very small and I have never seen NO3 or PO4 in my tank. It has always read 0ppm.

I stepping out on a limb here and started dosing NoNO3 on Monday. During a discussion with TMZ, he also advised that I remove my GFO and allow the PO4 to come up a little as well. We'll see what happens with my coral over the next few weeks, but if they color up to half of what yours are Thales, I'll be dancing in the streets.

You can check out my thread here that has some pictures of my poor little corals. :sad2:

I would feed you fish more often. Accomplishes the same goal.

There is a misconception: There are a lot of nutrients on natural reefs, they are just consumed at alarming rates, leaving the impression that there are no nutrients. This should be the same with our systems. We don't need to starve, we just need proper export of excess. Finding the right balance is key and difficult.

 

[dvanacker]

If higher levels of phosphate are needed for good health, color and growth of sps, can someone please explain why the natural reef levels are so low. Also any explanation why myself and plenty others can achieve great results with low PO4 and NO3.

This thread is going take people in the wrong direction IMO. Thales tank might be doing well with high values but it's not because of this fact it is despite this fact.

Sypderturbo, your problem is likely your low bio load and I'm guessing your tank is fairly new as well. The nicest tanks I've witness have been one with a large bio load and good filtration methods. High import of quality food but also high export of organic waste ie. docs, no3 and po4.

I will admit that some people have got the wrong idea about how "clean" a sps tank should be. Ya the water should be well filtered and clean but the tank should be full of life and food as well.

Sorry it's my take on the subject and I had to say something before people think raising NO3 and PO4 levels are going to help them and turn to purposely raising or artificially dosing them.

 

[Thales]

If higher levels of phosphate are needed for good health, color and growth of sps,

No one is arguing this.

can someone please explain why the natural reef levels are so low.

Dilution. Animals processing the nutrients.

Also any explanation why myself and plenty others can achieve great results with low PO4 and NO3.

Because we don't really know what is going on in our tanks and there are a ton of different ways to run a captive reef.

This thread is going take people in the wrong direction IMO.

No more so than any other thread discussing what may or may not be going on in our glass boxes.

Thales tank might be doing well with high values but it's not because of this fact it is despite this fact.

We simply don't know if that is true or not. More importantly, high phosphate may not be the boogyman many have made of it in the last few years.

Sorry it's my take on the subject and I had to say something before people think raising NO3 and PO4 levels are going to help them and turn to purposely raising or artificially dosing them.

Yep. It is why I keep saying that I am not advocating that anyone change anything. That said, it may be the case that such actions could help, at least as much as every thread about raising or lowering nutrients in tanks.

 

[Thales]

The article should be out soon.

 

[a.browning]

People get WAY too worked up about phosphates. I don't even bother testing for them anymore.

 

[ifarmer]

let me guess.
maybe your PO level is at minus .0003?

 

[FlyPenFly]

I gotta agree completely with Thale. I think we presume to know a lot more than we do by relying on natural models that simply don't work the same way in our systems.

 

[Allmost]

I gotta agree completely with Thale. I think we presume to know a lot more than we do by relying on natural models that simply don't work the same way in our systems.

when did he say that lol

 

[Allmost]

More importantly, high phosphate may not be the boogyman many have made of it in the last few years.

it may not be, but what is, if po4 isnt ?

and if we dont know .... then it might be po4 ...

if that made sense lol

problem is ppl like to be told what to do, how many drops of what to dose, or how many grams of what to run in sump ... and very very limited number of ppl actually are willing to understand the effect of different things and make sense of what is going on in their reef to make correct adjustments, based on what we learn on here and the sites alike.

we see it daily, a nice low nutrient tank shows up, every one runs GFO the day after and we get threads based on po4. then a tank on opposite end shows up, and ppl add po4 ... same ppl that removed it lol we lack to see the connection between the successful tanks ... the reefer has a plan, and an Idea what is going on in their tank, and dont change their plans and method daily.

 

[kevin_e]

If higher levels of phosphate are needed for good health, color and growth of sps, can someone please explain why the natural reef levels are so low. Also any explanation why myself and plenty others can achieve great results with low PO4 and NO3.

This thread is going take people in the wrong direction IMO. Thales tank might be doing well with high values but it's not because of this fact it is despite this fact.

Sypderturbo, your problem is likely your low bio load and I'm guessing your tank is fairly new as well. The nicest tanks I've witness have been one with a large bio load and good filtration methods. High import of quality food but also high export of organic waste ie. docs, no3 and po4.

I will admit that some people have got the wrong idea about how "clean" a sps tank should be. Ya the water should be well filtered and clean but the tank should be full of life and food as well.

Sorry it's my take on the subject and I had to say something before people think raising NO3 and PO4 levels are going to help them and turn to purposely raising or artificially dosing them.

Nutrients are "limited" on reefs because they are consumed immediately.

 

[Thales]

it may not be, but what is, if po4 isnt ?

and if we dont know .... then it might be po4 ...

if that made sense lol

Yep. 'We don't know' is a respectable answer. The question then becomes 'how do I make decisions?'. I have written about this a lot, but a boiling down could be - read everything, go to different sites and places (I can't tell you how much my though processes and perspective changed when I stopped relying on one or two places for my info) find some tanks you like the look of and listen carefully to what the people running them are doing, then think carefully about what you want and how you might get it.

problem is ppl like to be told what to do, how many drops of what to dose, or how many grams of what to run in sump ... and very very limited number of ppl actually are willing to understand the effect of different things and make sense of what is going on in their reef to make correct adjustments, based on what we learn on here and the sites alike.

we see it daily, a nice low nutrient tank shows up, every one runs GFO the day after and we get threads based on po4. then a tank on opposite end shows up, and ppl add po4 ... same ppl that removed it lol we lack to see the connection between the successful tanks ... the reefer has a plan, and an Idea what is going on in their tank, and dont change their plans and method daily.

For sure. I think this becomes even more problematic with live animals are involved like in our hobby. Developing a blue thumb, or a saltwater thumb, takes time, but seems quite worth it in the end.

 

[kevin_e]

I gotta agree completely with Thale. I think we presume to know a lot more than we do by relying on natural models that simply don't work the same way in our systems.

It may have more to do with misunderstanding natural models. For instance, reefs may be absent of nitrogen and phosphorus through testing, but that doesn't mean they aren't important. We see these results and assume we must keep our systems devoid of those molecules. The simple truth is that reefs are devoid of those molecules because they consume them immediately. They are necessary in certain forms; maybe even the limiting aspect for growth in reefs. We just don't know. We starve our systems to maintain zeros when we should probably be figuring out how to feed heavily and export heavily.