Harlequin tusk in QT- Please help!

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pjsonnentag

New member
I got a 5.5" HT 3 weeks ago tomorrow. He's been in QT since (hyposaline since he came in with a few ich spots). The QT was pre-established and had never seen another fish. Salinity was slowly dropped to 1.009 (refractometer). He began eating frozen krill (with vitamins) on day 2 and had been eating pretty well ever since. One flare up of ich lasted 2 days, but he's been clean for a week now.

Last week, I noticed a white patch and some fin loss on the dorsal fin. I tested the water yesterday. Nitrates were high (from all the krill parts and poop) so I did a 50% water change last night. Aged water, same temp/ params etc. The new nitrate level was close to 10ppm, 0ppm NH4 (should be fine for fish only right?) This morning after work, I found him turned on his side and inactive like the tank light had just come on for the day (but it had been on for 8 hrs). He also ignored food and seemed very inactive. He's now wedged himself in a PVC pipe and I'm trying not to bug him.

Any ideas as to why the sudden change? His color looks good, respiration appears normal, but he wont eat and seems to be "laying around" a lot.


Please help - it took me forever to find this fish and I'd hate to lose him in QT!!!!
 
First, nitrates are of no concern in FO and fish QT environments. Your nitrates could be in the hundreds and it wouldn't bother the fish; only corals/inverts. So, when it comes to water chemistry in QT all you need to worry about is ammonia and pH. The latter you may want to check because it may need to be buffered while doing hypo.

The "white patch and some fin loss on the dorsal fin" could be a possible bacterial infection. (Pics would help with diagnosis.) But I wouldn't mix hypo with antibiotics. In fact, I don't trust hypo at all. How it ever got to be a "proven method" I don't understand. There have been studies proving that hypo resistant strains of Crypto exist.
 
I think the chances of having a rare stain of ich resistant to osmotic stress are pretty unlikely. I've read about and personally used hypo QT before on more delicate fish. I'm at a loss. He's still alive this morning, but no improvement. I opened the Venturi on the powerhead incase O2 is low. Hoping for an Easter miracle.
 
I've become a non-hypo person too. (I've never really been a believer anyhow.) IMO, hobbyist error is probably the main cause. There is simply no room for error with hypo; a hydrometer that isn't perfectly calibrated, a slight rise in SG due to evaporation or water changing, etc. As triggreef says above; this forum section has an ever-growing number of hypo failures. I also think there is a good possibility of an ich strain (s) that has developed more tolerance to the low SG needed in hypo. Just a gut feeling.
 
start raising the salinity slowly and everything should be fine. keep up the small wc too.

the fish is starting to dehydrate - classic signs imo.
 
pjsonnentag said:
I got a 5.5" HT 3 weeks ago tomorrow. He's been in QT since (hyposaline since he came in with a few ich spots). The QT was pre-established and had never seen another fish. Salinity was slowly dropped to 1.009 (refractometer). He began eating frozen krill (with vitamins) on day 2 and had been eating pretty well ever since. One flare up of ich lasted 2 days, but he's been clean for a week now.

Last week, I noticed a white patch and some fin loss on the dorsal fin. I tested the water yesterday. Nitrates were high (from all the krill parts and poop) so I did a 50% water change last night. Aged water, same temp/ params etc. The new nitrate level was close to 10ppm, 0ppm NH4 (should be fine for fish only right?) This morning after work, I found him turned on his side and inactive like the tank light had just come on for the day (but it had been on for 8 hrs). He also ignored food and seemed very inactive. He's now wedged himself in a PVC pipe and I'm trying not to bug him.

Any ideas as to why the sudden change? His color looks good, respiration appears normal, but he wont eat and seems to be "laying around" a lot.


Please help - it took me forever to find this fish and I'd hate to lose him in QT!!!!
Click to expand...

How did you establish the QT? Ammonia level can surge at any moment if there is poor nitrification in QT. One test for ammonia does not always reflect the ammonia situation.

But fish die for many reasons and a aquarium is a closed system. These are two independent facts and they augment the detrimental effects of both.

A fish many be collected, held, shipped poorly. When a pathogen concentrates in a closed system, many things can happen with weakened immunity.

To reduce the impact of closedness on the accumulation of waterborne pathogenic bacteria, a properly set up UV is essential. I always use UV whenever possible. The loss of fin and white patch suggest some bacterial factor, but sometimes I opt for preventive antibiotic treatment without UV first, such as if there is an open wound.
 
He hasn't eaten in almost a week now, and has been rather lethargic, although he's becoming a little more active in the late 2 days. I'm raising the salinity slowly each day, offering krill and hoping for the best! Thanks for the advice guys.

I think the hypo may have done more harm than good. If this fish pulls through, I'm off the hypo bandwagon for sure.
 
the hyposalinty curve

the hyposalinty curve

As I read different threads in this fish disease forum I realize that people have been lead to belive that if you apply a certain prescribed treament that it will work. Thus we have both opponents and proponents of hypo , copper etc.The reality of veterinary medicine is that each case is a individual situation. while it has been demonstrated that hypo ,copper and other meds or a combination of therapies work. The case is complicated by the various strains of parasites,The many different species of fish we keep and then the unknown origin, collecton method, drugs,and meds that the fish has been exposed to.
The other variable is how will a certain fish withstand hyopo and then how much hypo and or time is lethal to that fish.Yes WE HAVE EXPERIENCE and know that some fish are more tolerant than others.
So at best we are left with a workable knowlege but not a prescription. In the case cited above the hypo of 1,009 is most likely to low. As I have pointed out if a fish is in 1.020 in the lfs placing the fish abrubtly in 1015 will kill many parasites on the fish that have not yet embedded deeply into the skin.Copperpower is my choice since it is chealated and less toxic to fish. Inspite of the research which was preformed over and over again in the same tank and with that strain of ick. Raising the water temps to 86 will cause the parasited to metamorph to the next stage . My POINT HERE IS THAT SINCE WE HAVE TO MANY VARIBLES we need multi pronged treatment plan AND NOT PUSH FISH TO THE EXTREMES and stress them even more
Dr.Pat L DVM
 
Dr. Pat- First off, very neat to see a DVM here! I am just finishing an MS in biotechnology and work with DVM's on a daily basis so I have a better than average understanding of basic biology, but we specialize in primate ophthalmology at work, so marine fish may as well be from another planet for most of us!

I do understand that there are often multiple issues when dealing with sick animals. I was just at a loss with this particular case since it was so different from what I had experienced in the past. I must admit, I may have been looking for a silver bullet in this forum though.

I have begun daily 30% water changes which are also serving to inch the SG back to 1.025. I'm happy to report that after just 2 days, the fish is exhibiting normal behavior and much improved activity levels. He's still reluctant to feed, but I'm optimistic and will keep offering feed. I'll keep this post up to date as he recovers (finger crossed).
 
Update- Just a week ago, I went to the QT tank in the morning with a ziplock in hand expecting to find a dead fish......today, the tusk fish is feeding again!

Not 100% yet of course, but I still couldn't be happier with his progress. He took two decent sized frozen krill that had been soaked in garlic extract this morning (still don't buy the whole garlic craze, but it can't hurt right?). Just waiting for the dorsal fin lesion to heal up. No infection visible, just a clean notch out of the fin now.

Thanks to all for the advice. Still watching this fish carefully. I hope to move him to the display in few short weeks.
 
One other caveat with hypo - the pH can drift way off with the decreased alk that comes with hypo. That could have caused some of the issues with the fish.
 
Update- the HT is extremely active and eating anything that I drop in the tank, flakes, pellets, frozen, nearly my finger (a good sign).

I noticed a few very minor spots on the tail and one fin 2 days ago (may have been nothing, hard to tell). I assumed the next day he would be displaying another full on cycle of ich, but the symptoms were the same if not absent. It's been almost exactly 3 weeks since the last spot was noticed from the last round (during hypo). I'm wresteling with the idea of using copper just in case, since hypo didn't go so well last time (chealted copper with daily testing).

I'd hate to give my prized powder blue the parasite by adding the Ht too early! But I'd also hate to risk the HT by using copper in the QT. Thougts?
 
Iwould hold off a while and just observe. Then use cupramine. Cupramine is safe and works. But if you notice more ich you need to treat 4 weeks.

OR tank transfer. I have more faith in that than anything but it is taxing on a person. Not so much taxing on the fish as everyone thinks if you do it right.
 
TT is very effective if done correctly, like mentioned above it is very taxing on a person and not stressful on the fish if done right
 
pjsonnentag said:
Update- the HT is extremely active and eating anything that I drop in the tank, flakes, pellets, frozen, nearly my finger (a good sign).

I noticed a few very minor spots on the tail and one fin 2 days ago (may have been nothing, hard to tell). I assumed the next day he would be displaying another full on cycle of ich, but the symptoms were the same if not absent. It's been almost exactly 3 weeks since the last spot was noticed from the last round (during hypo). I'm wresteling with the idea of using copper just in case, since hypo didn't go so well last time (chealted copper with daily testing).

I'd hate to give my prized powder blue the parasite by adding the Ht too early! But I'd also hate to risk the HT by using copper in the QT. Thougts?
Click to expand...

Hello and congrats on obtainning the MS degree. Im happy to read that ht is doing better.I wouldnt panic with 1 or 2 spots appearing. BUT keep a close eye, evaluate respiratory rate as he sleeps with a flash light. If the gills are clean you have time on your side the fish may also have confered a degreee of immunity. eating is the key as im sure you realize. I always add vitc and garlic extreme to all frozen foods which I allow to defrost overnight in the refrigerator. Allicin is the theraputic compound in garlic and it seems to help .[ABOVE ALL DO NO HARM as the dogma goes.] I routinely qt with copperpower and a degree of hypo as Ive outlined above.sounds like your doing a good job!
Dr.Pat
It must be interesting working with primates PM ME IF YOU NEED A QUICK RESPONSE
 
Alright, after 3 weeks of copper and a week of nothing in QT, the tusk looks great. Eating ravenously and showing no signs of ich. Also, the minor fin lesion has completetly healed over. Friday night he was introdeced to the DT at lights out.

My powder blue didn't exactly roll out the welcome wagon Saturday morning. In fact he swam around angrily for about 15 min, dorsal fin flagged the whole time. He chased the tusk (about an 2" larger than him) for a bit and kept the new guy isolated to about 50% of the tank.

Sunday was better. The powder blue is still obviously dominant, but he let the tusk swim about mainly un-harrased and allowed him to take Hikari marine-A pellets.

I have a web cam fixed on the tank today and from my desk at work, everyone seems to be playing nice for the most part. If all is still going well, I'll try to post some pics for you HT fans....if he'll hold still!
 
Heh it made me happy to read this thread and see that the HT lived and is doing good.

Ive never really understood why people used hypo myself. A QT is to treat the fish in ways you cant in your DT. Break out whatever needs to be done for a sure victory,chemical warfare is by far the most effective against infections and parasites. We use it on ourselves and our other pets,why not our wet pets? =)

Again Im glad your guy made it thru and is doing well. Did you put him in a FO or reef?
 
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