Heater Not in Sump?

Patrick Cox

Active member
I am considering ordering a new custom acrylic sump from a well known and recommended sump builder and he is telling me that he does not recommend putting a heater in a sump. He says "heaters are best kept in the aquarium." Anyone else agree with this?

Thanks
pat
 
Putting a heater in you acrylic sump is perfectly fine. I been keeping heaters in my acrylic sumps well over 10 years without issue.
 
From the sounds of it he was not concerned about the acrylic sump but the efficiency of heating the tank.

Personally, I use two lower watt heaters. One in the sump and one in the tank. My reasoning being that if my return pump ever crapped out on me while I was away, I would still have at least one heater in the display to help maintain temp. If all my heating was in the sump and I lost my return then my display temp might drop too low. Paranoid? Maybe, but just letting you know how I handle it.
 
From the sounds of it he was not concerned about the acrylic sump but the efficiency of heating the tank.

Personally, I use two lower watt heaters. One in the sump and one in the tank. My reasoning being that if my return pump ever crapped out on me while I was away, I would still have at least one heater in the display to help maintain temp. If all my heating was in the sump and I lost my return then my display temp might drop too low. Paranoid? Maybe, but just letting you know how I handle it.

This is how I do things as well.



If you wanted to put the heater in just the sump, that will be fine.
 
I keep my heaters in my overflow and get a more even heating that way. Just another way to do things.

Hey, now that sounds like a pretty good idea. Do you get enough circulation of the heated water that way? Maybe they all work like this but my overflow has a pvc pipe attached to the bottom of the tank with a U at the top and the water travels up the U and down the pipe into the sump. With this configuration I am not sure how well the water volume in the overflow itself really circulates. Just wondering. Thanks for the idea.

Any others do this?

Pat
 
I have a 300W heater in my corner overflow of my current 90g rr tank. I am upgrading to my new 210rr this weekend and will be placing two 300W heaters(1 in each overflow).

I had my heater in my sump on my 90, but moved it out due to taking up too much space and owrrying about dropping something on it. No difference in temp between the two different places in my experience.

Thanks, Steve
 
I have my Jager in the overflow box, it is completely out of the way. Not taking up space in the sump, even if you have a big sump, the overflow is a great idea. The heat distribution is good, my temp is steady between 79-81. I also have the stand pipes where the drain pipe has a 90degree pointing down, and I believe the water circulates well in there.
 
I have my temp probe in my sump with the heaters downstream of the purobe in the next sump section. In this way the probe won't read a high temperature because it's monitoring the water as it's heated.

I like the idea of placing the heaters in the overflows but then my temp probe would take it's reading right after the water's heated. I'm guessing if I decide to do this I should move my temp probe to the tank?
 
I keep my heaters in my overflow and get a more even heating that way. Just another way to do things.

If the heater can keep up with the heat needs of the system and there is even modest flow, then it is evenly heating the system.

  • Heatrers are ugly, why would you want one in the display?
  • Heaters in an overflow can run dry (of course depending on the style of overflow).
  • Heaters should ALWAYS be run from a dedicated commercial/industrial temperature controller
  • Heaters should NEVER be in a different compartment than the temperature probe and should ALWAYS be just slightly downstream of the temperature probe.
  • Heaters SHOULD be placed in a compartment that has a constant water level that does not fluctuate with evaporation.
 
I disagree with everything you just said.^^^
-We are not talking about putting them in plain sight.
-In an overflow like we are talking, even when you do a water change out of the DT the level in the box stays the same.
-Heaters do not, as you say "ALWAYS" have to be ran from a controller. Granted that would be preferable, but I look at my tanks everyday and can tell when a thermostat is stuck on. Therefore I've always saved my hundred dollars that the controller would have cost.
-The location of the temp. probe should'nt matter at all because of the flow rate, and putting it downstream is just as pointless. The water that passes by the temp. probe is always in a different part of the tank/system.
-If you want to put the heater in a sump compartment, again, all you have to do is observe your tank daily and top-off evap. and the running dry problem should never arise.
Sorry to rain on your post but I just could'nt help but not see the truth in any of your advice.
 
I disagree with everything you just said.^^^
I am not picking on you, but you appear to have changed or missed the meaning of almost everything I posted. Let's look a little deeper and see if we can expand on some of the things I posted. The dynamics and dangers of something as simple as a heater in an aquarium are often overlooked or misunderstood. Countless systems are damages or destroyed because best practice is not employed.


-We are not talking about putting them in plain sight.
I did not say you were but offered my opinion on the matter. However, "best kept in the aquarium" could mean in the display OR in the overflow. I offered my opinion on the first point (in the display) and factual information regarding why the second point (in the overflow) may pose a problem. See below:


-In an overflow like we are talking, even when you do a water change out of the DT the level in the box stays the same.
Please read my post again. "Heaters in an overflow can run dry (of course depending on the style of overflow). I did not give an absolute, I offered a warning. I.E. not ALL OVERFLOW STYLES stay FLOODED or maintain a SAFE level for heater operation.

Remember, everybody following along may not be on the same page. What appears as harmless advice may in fact get somebody in trouble if they don't fully understand the context of the advice.


-Heaters do not, as you say "ALWAYS" have to be ran from a controller.
You left out a word. I said "should ALWAYS", inferring BEST PRACTICE. Leaving out words changes meaning and you have disagreed with something I did not infer.

Granted that would be preferable
That is what "should ALWAYS" STRONGLY denotes :)

but I look at my tanks everyday and can tell when a thermostat is stuck on. Therefore I've always saved my hundred dollars that the controller would have cost.
While checking your system components daily is certainly a VERY GOOD idea, doing so does not provide the same level of safety that a quality temperature controller does. What happens if you DON'T make it home for a day? Two days?, etc. For any set of criteria, there is an acceptable level of risk and/or a point of diminishing returns with regard to complexity vs cost vs safety. Most folks make poor or uninformed choices with regard to aquarium heaters because they simply do not fully understand or take the time to consider the criteria. The result is a false sense of security based on their percieced (lack of) risk. The comfort creates a false point of diminished returns and next thing you know, $3,000 worth of livestock and 5 years of work are destroyed in hours by a $20 heater. Sadly, in almost all of the cases, a reliable controller and application of best practice (as outlined above) would have prevented the loss.

That is, while you may have "saved $100" a simple overheating event caused by a stuck thermostat (something that has nearly a 100% chance of happening over the life of the heater) can easily do thousands of dollars of aggregate damage to your livestock and begs the question: Did you really save $100?

-The location of the temp. probe should'nt matter at all because of the flow rate, and putting it downstream is just as pointless.
I did not say to put it downstream, I said to place the probe upstream of the heaters. It certainly does make a difference in the way the heaters cycles and the temperature stability of the tank. The larger the heat load (loss) on the system, the more important this becomes. The lower the turnover through the heater area, the more important this becomes. This is basic physics (thermodynamics) at work and one of the fundamentals of process control.

The water that passes by the temp. probe is always in a different part of the tank/system.
If the probe and heater are in DIFFERENT compartments of the system (separated by baffles or by the sump/display plumbing, etc) then a pump failure (or forgetting to turn the return pump back on after feeding or maintenance) can result in calls for heat (or calls to turn off heat) being erroneous.

Example:
Temp probe in the INTAKE compartment of the sump, heater in the return compartment. You turn the pump off to feed the fish and go eat dinner. The room is cold, so the sump loses temperature. The probe calls for heat and the heater kicks on. It begins to heat the water in the RETURN compartment, but the probe has no clue because it is sitting on the other side of a baffle or two. The water in the RETURN compartment nears boiling, as you remember to turn on the pump. You turn the pump on and send 5 gallons of scalding water into the display tank.

That is one of MANY scenarios that illustrate why we don't put the heaters in different compartments with relation to the sensing probe. There are steps that can be taken to minimize the risk (using the integrated thermostats as fail-safes) but the best practice still holds true and (as mentioned) there are numerous other scenarious to account for.


-If you want to put the heater in a sump compartment, again, all you have to do is observe your tank daily and top-off evap. and the running dry problem should never arise.
Again, what happens while you are sleeping, the ato fails, you are caught late at the office, etc.?

With a little bit of common sense and planning, almost ALL heater related disasters can be totaly avoided. Ignoring best practice significantly increases the chances of a heater caused or related aquarium disaster and that is why such events or so extremely common.

If you want to delve deeper into this topic and "best practices" that can help to ensure your life support system stays safe and fairly fail-safe then you can take a look at the article I wrote regarding the topic. I did so, because this subject comes up VERY often here at RC.

http://beananimal.com/articles/aquarium-heaters-what-you-need-to-know!.aspx

Happy Reefing :)
 
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I have two Jager's in my sump. One on the drain side and one on the return side. Both linked to the Apex. Never had any issues. I hate seeing heaters in DT's!
 
I have two Jager's in my sump. One on the drain side and one on the return side. Both linked to the Apex. Never had any issues. I hate seeing heaters in DT's!

I hope you have set the integral thermostats to act as fail-safes in the event that the Apex sticks or calls for heat due to a flaw in your programming logic or firmware corruption.
 
If you mean having the heaters set on the correct temp in addition to having them controlled by the Apex than yes. I also have alarms setup in case the system gets out of my min/max temp ranges.
 
They should be set just above the setpoint of the Apex. This will prevent their internal contacts from cycling and wearing out due to fatigue and/or arcing.

This needs to be done manually, not via the numbers or marks on the dial. That is turn them all the way up and let the Apex bring the tank to stable temp. Then plug them directly into the wall, WITHOUT they Apex (bypassing it). Turn the dial down until the light turns off (it STOPs heating). Then turn the dial back up and STOP when they heater turns ON and begin to heat. This will be the set point JUST ABOVE where the Apex is set. Do this for EACH heater.

This should be checked during regular maintenance, as they internal thermostats tend to drift over time and may not stay at the proper fail-safe point.

In most cases, I prefer a dedicated temperature controller as opposed to using the function built into the reef controller. There are too many variables to account for with regard to failure modes :)

That said, if you use the integrated thermostats as fail-safes, you do gain a very reasonable level of safety.
 
My experience is that the heaters tend to fail more often then the return pump. If your return pump shuts off for more than a few hours, you've got bigger issues to deal with than a heater.
 
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