Hehe, check this out, guys... Mantis shrimp the most intelligent inverts?!

[Pandora]

Thanks kalim! That page is useful, haven't seen it before. I read before about the symbiotic relationship between animals and the bacteria they acquired their TTX from, but was not sure if structurally, the molecules were exactly the same or slightly modified between the diverse number of animals that use it.

But I am still curious about predator resistence, because to my knowledge (means nothing hehe) Dr. Brodie was the only researcher who found a predator who was truly resistent to TTX.. the garter snake in question. A number of the animals that use the poison (and harbor it in their own tissues) are resistent themselves to it.

 

[kalim]

calm down.

film segments are typically cut and pieced together from various sources.

The segment mentioned was from Incredible Suckers:

http://www.blueboard.com/mantis/film/suckers.htm

The two mantises shown were definitely two different species...the first was a relatively large critter, while the one that succumbed to the toxin was pretty small.

OK from what I saw, the octo was chasing the mantis and subdued the prey. And as Joe Dirt would say " You're focusing on the wrong part of the story..." I was bringing up the intelligence of the octo... and in the clip I watched, the octo ate the shrimp...so if it was fabricated or set up ...the octo still killed the mantis... it doesn't matter if they would or would not meet in the wild, what matters is I saw the octo all in one clip kill and devour the shrimp. how do you know the clip I watched was the same as what you are speaking of? give me the name of the person that supposedly created this clip and I will rent the movie I watched in class from the library to see if we are speaking of the same clip (I'm pretty sure I was watching Nat. Geographic and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't lie about this sort of thing).

 

[Emperor]

AND PS go to http://exn.ca/templates/story.cfm?ID=1999031969 and this article talks about the mantis shrimps...and if you scroll down a little bt... WHAT DO YA KNOW! A blue-ringed octo eating a mantis shrimp!!! :eek1: and if you click on the pick and have real player, you can even see the octo eat the wussy shrimp.

 

[Emperor]

and I'm not being uptight, you don't need to calm me down, I just don't like it when people try to make me look stupid. I know what I saw and I have even a link on my last post to show what I'm talking about so take a look and see what I am saying.

 

[kalim]

i'm sorta curious too.

in ants and some other critters i know of, resistance to a toxin does not seem to happen unless the ant is specialized againt the toxin-producing prey.

like Gonodactylus says, though, the mantis simply pounds the octopus to a pulp to disperse the toxin, and may not be specialized for blue rings.... or, if it is, Gonodactylus may want to publish it first before disclosing details.

either way, it's fascinating stuff.

But I am still curious about predator resistence, because to my knowledge (means nothing hehe) Dr. Brodie was the only researcher who found a predator who was truly resistent to TTX.. the garter snake in question. A number of the animals that use the poison (and harbor it in their own tissues) are resistent themselves to it.

 

[kalim]

dude, did i say you were uptight?....i also don't think Gonodactylus meant anything by giving out useful information. the proper response is: thanks for the info!

i know that link you posted. so what? predators are what predators be, whether mantis shrimps or octos. this isn't a football game. some mantis eat cephalopods, some mantis get eaten by cephalopods. some people get eaten by tigers as well, but i wouldn't exactly call tigers smarter than people.

and I'm not being uptight, you don't need to calm me down, I just don't like it when people try to make me look stupid. I know what I saw and I have even a link on my last post to show what I'm talking about so take a look and see what I am saying.

 

[Emperor]

" and there is a snail in the desert....and it can talk...." You are focusing on the wrong part of the story, AGAIN, I understand and see where you are coming from... I know predators as a whole win some and lose some... I'm just replying to a post that said how can you judge if an animal has intelligence... I also understand just because one particular animal has an advantage over another doesn't make them smarter... I was just showing respect toward the octopus and their other mollusk counterparts... also I kinda have a vendetta out for those damn mantis shrimp! I had one in a 12g tank and the little snot killed my flame angelfish I merely put in the tank so I could clean out my larger tank and move LR without smushing him (guess it didn't matter). So I named the shrimp T. Rex and sold it to a guy I met at my LFS for $10. a little bit of reparation but not enough, that Flame Angel cost me $40! sorry if you took my post the wrong way... and my quote above was from Joe Dirt again... just in case you don't know...

 

[Pandora]

True enough, kalim, on the publishing... if that's the case, Gono, ignore that part of the question.

But seriously, if you haven't come across it yet, check out Dr. Brodie's research. It's very interesting, but he has this theory on predator-prey coevolution which is fascinating (remember how we were talking about that before...)... In the dynamic of most predator-prey coevolving pairs, the prey has stronger evolutionary pressure to evolve defenses, because if it loses, it loses it's life...but if the predator loses, it only loses a meal and can survive to hunt again (this is classic theory). But Dr. Brodie was theorizing that when the prey itself is dangerous, the arms race is more equal in terms of selective pressure on both animals, and comes to a stalemate in some ways. So I guess it would have to mean very few pairs like this would evolve... that only had highly specialized predators, which are more vulnerable to outside pressures because they are so specialized (why a lot of these species are becoming extinct with human encroachment). Interesting stuff, anyway. I found a link a page by Brodie, but I think it's the other Dr. Brodie (his father) who started a lot of the research:

http://sunflower.bio.indiana.edu/~bbrodie/edb3res1.html

 

[Iwantacephalopod]

Dude this whole thread is such crap. Just the title infers that the author didnt put any time into research. Do not make an accusation with out knowing all the facts. Its absurb this went on for 27 posts. I havent posted in a long time, but at least I do copious amounts of research. I am not criticizing anybody but I will say one last thing. Both creatures have there ways of displaying varying degrees of intellect.
They are both very amazing.
Neato,
Peace,
Devon :smokin: :smokin: :smokin:

 

[devonc]

man, you gotta love those trolls that just add nothing to the conversation but love to complain about everyone else...

whats wrong with havin an opinion, i got the same one... i have both an octopus n a mantis shrimp and i still think the octopus is more intelligent. 'copious amounts of research'... hahaha well, your special, buddy.

pandora is that a guy who does research up at utah state with herpetology? i think i know who it is

 

[cephalopoder]

Well in some ways I do agree with Iwantacephalopod. This issue comes up every year out here. After a while it become a bit tedious. I have kept quite a few cephalopods and I currently have two manits shrimp as well. I got into saltwater years ago for the sole purpose of keeping octopuses and cephs. I will say that my peacock mantis impresses the heck out of me and there is no octopus that I have ever seen that can build a home from nothing the way both my mantis can. I feel that that they have their strong points just like cephs have theirs. I have done may tests with my octopuses and have never been able to get one to open a jar, uncork a bottle, pick a lock.... But they do have their amazing things they can do that a mantis can not. Just like mantis can do amazing things that cephs can not. When I gaze at both animals they both give me a look back that says their wondering what I am doing. I like both animals and although octos are my first love, I am impressed by stomatopods as well.
By the way some one earlier in the post questioned Gonodactylus's post about a film clip being hoaxed. In case you didn't know,Gonodactylus is Dr Roy Caldwell. He is one of the worlds foremost authorities on stomatopods and pygmy octopuses with blue rings being a main area of research. He has spent half his life doing research, making films, writing articles for scientific journals , teaching at universities as a professer of integrative biology and contributing to science on this subject. If there is any one that can give a honest and well researched opinion on both animals, it is him.