help again!
- Thread starter timrandlerv10
- Start date
timrandlerv10
New member
i just pulled them out, and in case i had any doubts, the stench cleared them...and my nose...yuck...
they looked ok when i got them...what happened?
they looked ok when i got them...what happened?
NicoleC
New member
This is one of those things that seems to happen to lobophyllia; the cause is unknown although there are many theories. Stressful conditions and improper flow (too much velocity or too little laminar flow) raises your chances considerably. There is some evidence to suggest it is contagious, so siphon out any brown gunk you find.
I would slowly reduce your salinity to about 1.025. If you bought this at a store, the jump from the low salinities stores often run to your Red Sea levels would be a major stress, even if drip acclimated.
You also need a big water change (nitrates high), and you don't mention pH, which I hope is around 8.4
I would slowly reduce your salinity to about 1.025. If you bought this at a store, the jump from the low salinities stores often run to your Red Sea levels would be a major stress, even if drip acclimated.
You also need a big water change (nitrates high), and you don't mention pH, which I hope is around 8.4
timrandlerv10
New member
they stay about 8.3 during the day.
i just did 10%, and i am going to do another 10% right now. i siphoned out stuff when i pulled them, so it looks pretty clean.
anything else i can do to help the tank tonight?
i just did 10%, and i am going to do another 10% right now. i siphoned out stuff when i pulled them, so it looks pretty clean.
anything else i can do to help the tank tonight?
Tomoko Schum
New member
Here's a good article on Brown Jelly Infections by Eric Borneman:
http://www.ericborneman.com/Brown Jelly /Brown Jelly.html
I am sorry that you lost your hammer. You need to siphon out dead tissues as much as possible and do water changes like Nicole recommended because brown jelly infection can spread to other corals.
Just in case you need to treat other corals like your other
Euphyllia (frogspawn), here's the treatment option he discusses in the article:
"Treatment of brown jelly infections is possible, but must be done quickly to avoid losses. As much of the digested tissue, or jelly, should be siphoned or brushed off the afflicted coral outside of the main tank. The mix of dead tissue and microorganisms can spread to nearby corals. Once cleansed of the excess tissue debris, a vigorous seawater rinse or a Lugol’s dip can be performed. It is best to use the least stressful methods first and see if the result is satisfactory. Excessive treatment or stress, such as through the use of antibiotics, may cause a coral to become susceptible to other infection, or may result in the bleaching or loss of the entire coral. If it appears that none of the above methods are halting the progress of the infection, the coral should be cut, snipped, or cleaved slightly ahead of the progressing jelly and placed in a quarantine tank."
I hate to rant about this, but you should QT your new corals. There are many things that can be kept out of our precious (and expensive) reef tanks by quarantining your new acquisition.
I cringe at the thought of bringing in Acropora Eating Flatworms and Montipora eating nudibranchs besides red bugs, planaria, zoanthid eating nudis, sundial snails, whelks, etc.
Tomoko
http://www.ericborneman.com/Brown Jelly /Brown Jelly.html
I am sorry that you lost your hammer. You need to siphon out dead tissues as much as possible and do water changes like Nicole recommended because brown jelly infection can spread to other corals.
Just in case you need to treat other corals like your other
Euphyllia (frogspawn), here's the treatment option he discusses in the article:
"Treatment of brown jelly infections is possible, but must be done quickly to avoid losses. As much of the digested tissue, or jelly, should be siphoned or brushed off the afflicted coral outside of the main tank. The mix of dead tissue and microorganisms can spread to nearby corals. Once cleansed of the excess tissue debris, a vigorous seawater rinse or a Lugol’s dip can be performed. It is best to use the least stressful methods first and see if the result is satisfactory. Excessive treatment or stress, such as through the use of antibiotics, may cause a coral to become susceptible to other infection, or may result in the bleaching or loss of the entire coral. If it appears that none of the above methods are halting the progress of the infection, the coral should be cut, snipped, or cleaved slightly ahead of the progressing jelly and placed in a quarantine tank."
I hate to rant about this, but you should QT your new corals. There are many things that can be kept out of our precious (and expensive) reef tanks by quarantining your new acquisition.
I cringe at the thought of bringing in Acropora Eating Flatworms and Montipora eating nudibranchs besides red bugs, planaria, zoanthid eating nudis, sundial snails, whelks, etc.
Tomoko
timrandlerv10
New member
i've heard of that, but in reality it means i have only measured my pH during the day...
SOOOOO...i came in this morning expecting my frogs to be jelly too. there were two small heads that i (saw? imagined?) something, so i pulled both frog colonies out, cut off four heads (GAH...i only had pliers...you can imagine how that went...) and two went right into the trash, two went into a separate QT. The two colonies went into their own QT after a quick iodine/RO dip. the larger of the two colonies looked like it even wanted to extend its tentacles, but after getting moved 2 or 3 more times, it retracted.
i'm going to buy a 10g at lunch time, but right now they're in a bucket with a 38 gph PH. after lunch, i'll move the two colonies to the ten, and the heads next to the potentially infected heads up to the big bucket.
for my frogs, the QT tank should have:
1.
2.
3.
4.
Other procedures i should take RIGHT NOW include:
1.
2.
thanks again and again.
tim
SOOOOO...i came in this morning expecting my frogs to be jelly too. there were two small heads that i (saw? imagined?) something, so i pulled both frog colonies out, cut off four heads (GAH...i only had pliers...you can imagine how that went...) and two went right into the trash, two went into a separate QT. The two colonies went into their own QT after a quick iodine/RO dip. the larger of the two colonies looked like it even wanted to extend its tentacles, but after getting moved 2 or 3 more times, it retracted.
i'm going to buy a 10g at lunch time, but right now they're in a bucket with a 38 gph PH. after lunch, i'll move the two colonies to the ten, and the heads next to the potentially infected heads up to the big bucket.
for my frogs, the QT tank should have:
1.
2.
3.
4.
Other procedures i should take RIGHT NOW include:
1.
2.
thanks again and again.
tim
timrandlerv10
New member
ok...i just went looked at the other QT'd heads...and a few of them have little bits of mucos attached...do i continue cutting or just assume they are all infected?
what is the prescribed course of action, which i assume can be pretty aggressive, since they are all doomed right now?
vigorous high-concentration lugol's dip? scrape/brush the mucos off? antibiotics?
thanks,
tim
what is the prescribed course of action, which i assume can be pretty aggressive, since they are all doomed right now?
vigorous high-concentration lugol's dip? scrape/brush the mucos off? antibiotics?
thanks,
tim
NicoleC
New member
A QT tank should have all the same things a display tank does, except it doesn't need to be pretty. Water quality and parameters, lighting and flow should all be very similar to the conditions in your tank. This means your QT is up and running BEFORE you bring home new purchases.
Being able to see through it helps (cheap 10g from the pet store), but a food safe bucket or Rubbermaid/Sterite tub will do.
For corals, a prophylactic Lugol's (iodine) dip is always advised.
If the mucus is clear, it is just irritation and it is trying to protect itself. Leave it alone. Providing they are in a safe condition, leave them alone now until you have a your QT ready for them. Then do the Lugol's dip before transferring to the new tank.
Once in the QT, don't mess with them, move them or subject them to stress unless you have to perform further triage. Right now they need peace and quiet the most. The more you move and stress them, the less likely they are to be able to fight off this infection.
Being able to see through it helps (cheap 10g from the pet store), but a food safe bucket or Rubbermaid/Sterite tub will do.
For corals, a prophylactic Lugol's (iodine) dip is always advised.
If the mucus is clear, it is just irritation and it is trying to protect itself. Leave it alone. Providing they are in a safe condition, leave them alone now until you have a your QT ready for them. Then do the Lugol's dip before transferring to the new tank.
Once in the QT, don't mess with them, move them or subject them to stress unless you have to perform further triage. Right now they need peace and quiet the most. The more you move and stress them, the less likely they are to be able to fight off this infection.
Tomoko Schum
New member
Tim,
Are you really sure that your frogspawn was affected? Didn't they come from separate sources? I am afraid that I got you panicking and doing too much too fast.
I would not try to move your corals around too much. It's stressful for a new coral to be moved around in a new environment even when it's healthy. I would not do a fresh water/iodine dip, either. I usually dip my corals in salt water with a prescribed amount of iodine.
I would just keep an eye on them in your current QT set up rather than setting up another one unless you have a sponge filter or something that is already colonized by filter bacteria. If you think they are goners already, it does not hurt to just let them rest a bit.
As for the night and day swing, it's normal that you have a small pH swing because all animals are exhaling CO2 at night. Your pH in the morning before the light comes on the tank should be the lowest in value. If it's not going below 8.1 in the morning, I would not really worry about it. I believe that you have a refugium for the tank now with chaetomorpha. Is the fuge light turned on at night when your MH goes out? If you have your fuge on the reverse photo period to the main and you still have a large swing, I would question about the surface agitation level or the CO2 level in your office environment.
Tomoko
Are you really sure that your frogspawn was affected? Didn't they come from separate sources? I am afraid that I got you panicking and doing too much too fast.
I would not try to move your corals around too much. It's stressful for a new coral to be moved around in a new environment even when it's healthy. I would not do a fresh water/iodine dip, either. I usually dip my corals in salt water with a prescribed amount of iodine.
I would just keep an eye on them in your current QT set up rather than setting up another one unless you have a sponge filter or something that is already colonized by filter bacteria. If you think they are goners already, it does not hurt to just let them rest a bit.
As for the night and day swing, it's normal that you have a small pH swing because all animals are exhaling CO2 at night. Your pH in the morning before the light comes on the tank should be the lowest in value. If it's not going below 8.1 in the morning, I would not really worry about it. I believe that you have a refugium for the tank now with chaetomorpha. Is the fuge light turned on at night when your MH goes out? If you have your fuge on the reverse photo period to the main and you still have a large swing, I would question about the surface agitation level or the CO2 level in your office environment.
Tomoko
timrandlerv10
New member
i got them from different places, but of course, they went into the same tank with no QT.
sidenote:
i have no idea what i was thinking. i completely forgot about the concept...i'm not a dumb guy, so i'm still shocked that i did this...its like...forgetting to file your taxes, or not updating your driver's license when you move, or...hmm...wait...i've done both of those too...maybe...i...am...
they are really stringing out mucos, which is what made me think they were affected. i will let them rest now, and see if they live through the day--i imagine if they are dead tomorrow morning, it was a moot point either way.
i put the lawnmower from CRA into the tank with no QT either...sigh...at least he doesnt have any brown jelly on him.
OH...i didnt even think to ask: can this brown jelly bacteria affect the anemone?
sidenote:
i have no idea what i was thinking. i completely forgot about the concept...i'm not a dumb guy, so i'm still shocked that i did this...its like...forgetting to file your taxes, or not updating your driver's license when you move, or...hmm...wait...i've done both of those too...maybe...i...am...
they are really stringing out mucos, which is what made me think they were affected. i will let them rest now, and see if they live through the day--i imagine if they are dead tomorrow morning, it was a moot point either way.
i put the lawnmower from CRA into the tank with no QT either...sigh...at least he doesnt have any brown jelly on him.
OH...i didnt even think to ask: can this brown jelly bacteria affect the anemone?
timrandlerv10
New member
i got them from different places, but of course, they went into the same tank with no QT.
sidenote:
i have no idea what i was thinking. i completely forgot about the concept...i'm not a dumb guy, so i'm still shocked that i did this...its like...forgetting to file your taxes, or not updating your driver's license when you move, or...hmm...wait...i've done both of those too...maybe...i...am...
they are really stringing out mucos, which is what made me think they were affected. i will let them rest now, and see if they live through the day--i imagine if they are dead tomorrow morning, it was a moot point either way.
i put the lawnmower from CRA into the tank with no QT either...sigh...at least he doesnt have any brown jelly on him.
OH...i didnt even think to ask: can this brown jelly bacteria affect the anemone?
sidenote:
i have no idea what i was thinking. i completely forgot about the concept...i'm not a dumb guy, so i'm still shocked that i did this...its like...forgetting to file your taxes, or not updating your driver's license when you move, or...hmm...wait...i've done both of those too...maybe...i...am...
they are really stringing out mucos, which is what made me think they were affected. i will let them rest now, and see if they live through the day--i imagine if they are dead tomorrow morning, it was a moot point either way.
i put the lawnmower from CRA into the tank with no QT either...sigh...at least he doesnt have any brown jelly on him.
OH...i didnt even think to ask: can this brown jelly bacteria affect the anemone?
Tomoko Schum
New member
Eric Borneman's article did not list any anemone as those that are commonly affected. A cursory search on the Internet did not yield any info on brown jelly on anemone, either.
Since anemone likes pristine water, you should keep your eyes on it and try to maintain good water quality in the display tank.
Tomoko
Since anemone likes pristine water, you should keep your eyes on it and try to maintain good water quality in the display tank.
Tomoko
timrandlerv10
New member
STILL ALIVE!
sooo...i'm guessing that means i yanked them out, dipped them, moved them around, they got irritated and starting 'snotting' and i thought that was brown jelly.
since they're out, i'd like to keep them out at least for another week to make sure the brown jelly is gone. is that long enough to out-last this brown jelly infection?
what food do i need to provide? what about water changes?
i was thinking we'd do a 25 or 50 p/c water change tomorrow...there is still lots of mucos from when we beat them up, should i try to remove that or just leave them alone?
i would greatly appreciate some hospital care advice...
right now they are in an 8G, heated, 38 gph PH tank.
does 25% every week or so sound right since we dont have filtration? more? less?
any other additives or supplements?
very happy they are alive...
the display tank is still 'hairing' but the lawnmower seems fast at work. we are running the po4 reactor, and continuuing with water changes and careful feedings. nitrates are now 10-15 instead of 5-10. we started lighting the chaeto and supplementing iron, and the n'ates are still going up.
what impact does harvesting have? so far i've only harvested hair algae!!!
i really want to get this under control, and am very reluctant to add any living creatures to the tank.
thanksfully, the nem still looks good and didnt move. the lawnmower recognized 'her majesty the queen' and stopped mid-stroke and moved away from the nem, so everyone continues to be happy, except the occasional hermit that gets too close and she has to roll off the rock (i want video of that one day
)
temp is now consistently 78, and salinity is down to 1.027...i do it by adding new water at 1.025, so we get a very slow drop. i figure there's enough salt creep eventually we will get to 1.026.
i've gotten lots of conflicting info on how much water to change. i've been doing ~10% (5 gallons in a 44g tank + 6g sump - rocks etc). i think doing more would help nitrates and who knows what else, but i'm reluctant to make major changes now without tomoko saying its ok!!!
thanks again,
tim
sooo...i'm guessing that means i yanked them out, dipped them, moved them around, they got irritated and starting 'snotting' and i thought that was brown jelly.
since they're out, i'd like to keep them out at least for another week to make sure the brown jelly is gone. is that long enough to out-last this brown jelly infection?
what food do i need to provide? what about water changes?
i was thinking we'd do a 25 or 50 p/c water change tomorrow...there is still lots of mucos from when we beat them up, should i try to remove that or just leave them alone?
i would greatly appreciate some hospital care advice...
right now they are in an 8G, heated, 38 gph PH tank.
does 25% every week or so sound right since we dont have filtration? more? less?
any other additives or supplements?
very happy they are alive...
the display tank is still 'hairing' but the lawnmower seems fast at work. we are running the po4 reactor, and continuuing with water changes and careful feedings. nitrates are now 10-15 instead of 5-10. we started lighting the chaeto and supplementing iron, and the n'ates are still going up.
what impact does harvesting have? so far i've only harvested hair algae!!!
i really want to get this under control, and am very reluctant to add any living creatures to the tank.
thanksfully, the nem still looks good and didnt move. the lawnmower recognized 'her majesty the queen' and stopped mid-stroke and moved away from the nem, so everyone continues to be happy, except the occasional hermit that gets too close and she has to roll off the rock (i want video of that one day
)temp is now consistently 78, and salinity is down to 1.027...i do it by adding new water at 1.025, so we get a very slow drop. i figure there's enough salt creep eventually we will get to 1.026.
i've gotten lots of conflicting info on how much water to change. i've been doing ~10% (5 gallons in a 44g tank + 6g sump - rocks etc). i think doing more would help nitrates and who knows what else, but i'm reluctant to make major changes now without tomoko saying its ok!!!
thanks again,
tim
JimW
Premium Member
Smaller, more frequent water changes are generally more beneficial than doing large water changes. The following is from one of RHFs' articles that gives pause to doing large water changes.
Sources of Ammonia in Reef Aquaria: Salt Mixes
There are a variety of sources of ammonia in reef aquaria. Minor sources include: 1) tap water (especially if it contains chloramine and is not treated with a deionizing resin) and 2) impurities in salt mixes and other additives. It has previously been shown that the total NH4-N ranged from 0.55 to 11.9 micromole/kg (0.008 to 0.17 ppm total NH4-N) in an analysis of eight brands of artificial seawater mixes. At the higher end of the scale, those levels will be detected with an ammonia test kit and can present potential toxicity concerns if fish are kept at those levels (see below). These levels of ammonia may be introduced from impurities in calcium chloride and magnesium chloride, where ammonia is a well known impurity resulting from some of the commercial manufacturing processes used (such as the Solvay process, which involves ammonia).
Calcium and magnesium additives can also be a significant source of ammonia, especially for aquarists who are trying to use inexpensive sources of bulk calcium or magnesium chloride. I discussed testing calcium chloride for ammonia in a previous article.
For nitrates, might give chaeto more time to work or consider remote dsb. IMHO The negatives of "high" nitrates are not as bad as they have been rumored to be.
FWIW,
Jim
Sources of Ammonia in Reef Aquaria: Salt Mixes
There are a variety of sources of ammonia in reef aquaria. Minor sources include: 1) tap water (especially if it contains chloramine and is not treated with a deionizing resin) and 2) impurities in salt mixes and other additives. It has previously been shown that the total NH4-N ranged from 0.55 to 11.9 micromole/kg (0.008 to 0.17 ppm total NH4-N) in an analysis of eight brands of artificial seawater mixes. At the higher end of the scale, those levels will be detected with an ammonia test kit and can present potential toxicity concerns if fish are kept at those levels (see below). These levels of ammonia may be introduced from impurities in calcium chloride and magnesium chloride, where ammonia is a well known impurity resulting from some of the commercial manufacturing processes used (such as the Solvay process, which involves ammonia).
Calcium and magnesium additives can also be a significant source of ammonia, especially for aquarists who are trying to use inexpensive sources of bulk calcium or magnesium chloride. I discussed testing calcium chloride for ammonia in a previous article.
For nitrates, might give chaeto more time to work or consider remote dsb. IMHO The negatives of "high" nitrates are not as bad as they have been rumored to be.
FWIW,
Jim
Tomoko Schum
New member
I second the frequent small water changes.
According to Terry Fairfield, a marine biologist, nitrate toxicity for fish starts at around 100mg/l. I suspect that it's much lower for inverts, but 10 to 15 ppm for a short time should not cause any problem except for the brownish coloration of your corals.
10 to 15% weekly water changes should keep your nitrate low unless you are really overfeeding. How much are you feeding?
If your frogspawn does not look bad, I would just let it rest. Don't change too many things to stress it out, especially if you don't see any new lesion/brownish slimy thing developing. If there is a lot of old mucous floating around in the QT tank, try to siphon them out gently with air line tubing when you do a water change. If your frogspawn starts to show its tentacles more fully, I suppose you can try to feed it very sparingly. I would not worry about supplementing the QT tank. A weekly water change with a good salt mix should provide all it needs.
I hope more people will chime in and voice their opinions here. I know there are many experienced, knowledgeable people on the Alabama Reefers forum. Although Tim may find it somewhat confusing to see various opinions, it proves that there are many ways to do things. I rely on frequent water changes with minimum equipment. Some people rely on aggressive skimming and the use of sophisticated equipment such as sulfur denitrators, ozonizers, UV sterilizers, fluidized bed filters, etc. to decrease the frequency of water changes.
Tomoko
According to Terry Fairfield, a marine biologist, nitrate toxicity for fish starts at around 100mg/l. I suspect that it's much lower for inverts, but 10 to 15 ppm for a short time should not cause any problem except for the brownish coloration of your corals.
10 to 15% weekly water changes should keep your nitrate low unless you are really overfeeding. How much are you feeding?
If your frogspawn does not look bad, I would just let it rest. Don't change too many things to stress it out, especially if you don't see any new lesion/brownish slimy thing developing. If there is a lot of old mucous floating around in the QT tank, try to siphon them out gently with air line tubing when you do a water change. If your frogspawn starts to show its tentacles more fully, I suppose you can try to feed it very sparingly. I would not worry about supplementing the QT tank. A weekly water change with a good salt mix should provide all it needs.
I hope more people will chime in and voice their opinions here. I know there are many experienced, knowledgeable people on the Alabama Reefers forum. Although Tim may find it somewhat confusing to see various opinions, it proves that there are many ways to do things. I rely on frequent water changes with minimum equipment. Some people rely on aggressive skimming and the use of sophisticated equipment such as sulfur denitrators, ozonizers, UV sterilizers, fluidized bed filters, etc. to decrease the frequency of water changes.
Tomoko
Tomoko Schum
New member
Yeah, Anthony seems to be recommending big water changes lately. Years ago fresh water hobbyists were avoiding large water changes, too, but now almost all fresh water fish breeders do near 100% water changes in both their fry tanks and breeding pair tanks just about everyday.
Tomoko
Tomoko
NicoleC
New member
I perform very large water changes with no problems. (Including in larval and breeding tanks.) The critical point is to do proper preparation -- throwing the salt mix in a bucket or water for 20 minutes won't do!
I also am not of the school of thinking that all nitrates are bad, but it really depends on what you are keeping. Absorption feeders like true zoanthids and most leather corals will benefit from constant levels of low nitrates. Other corals suffer terribly.
When dealing with a relative newcomer to the hobby with a mixed tank, I think advise erring on the side of trying for no nitrates (realizing they will not get there anyway) is a safer route. Especially when the tank is 10 months old and still in the hair algae stage -- it makes me think there is one or more of the following problems:
- Overstocking
- Low pH or wild pH swings (<0.1 per day is safe, IMO)
- Insufficient water changes
- Low oxygen levels
Tim, in QT I would do small daily water changes. About 10% each day. While this would be excessive in a display tank, it can help stressed corals heal and reduce pathogens. In a fish QT, always siphon up any stuff on the bottom.
While I advocate frequent water changes especially in environments like a QT, I keep a nano with no filtration except a few pieces of rock and I dreadfully overfeed... and I do 10% per week and don't have any algae issues. What a particular tank needs is often a case by case basis.
I also am not of the school of thinking that all nitrates are bad, but it really depends on what you are keeping. Absorption feeders like true zoanthids and most leather corals will benefit from constant levels of low nitrates. Other corals suffer terribly.
When dealing with a relative newcomer to the hobby with a mixed tank, I think advise erring on the side of trying for no nitrates (realizing they will not get there anyway) is a safer route. Especially when the tank is 10 months old and still in the hair algae stage -- it makes me think there is one or more of the following problems:
- Overstocking
- Low pH or wild pH swings (<0.1 per day is safe, IMO)
- Insufficient water changes
- Low oxygen levels
Tim, in QT I would do small daily water changes. About 10% each day. While this would be excessive in a display tank, it can help stressed corals heal and reduce pathogens. In a fish QT, always siphon up any stuff on the bottom.
While I advocate frequent water changes especially in environments like a QT, I keep a nano with no filtration except a few pieces of rock and I dreadfully overfeed... and I do 10% per week and don't have any algae issues. What a particular tank needs is often a case by case basis.
