HELP!!!!!! Angel not doing well!

[LargeAngels]

How are they doing?

 

[DJREEF]

Are you talking about right above the pectoral fin? If so, that's not really what it is. The bump is pretty large actually, but isn't discolored apart from a VERY (and I can't stress that enough) slightly red/purple thin line down the center. It's not a perfect circle, more of an oblique oval shape. Internal parasite?

Bacterial septicemia due to handling. It happens. Possible secondary from a decompression puncture, but to have it spread over such a wide area makes that possible, but suspect. Bouyance issues would be an indicator, though. Sensitive deep water species should always be considered to have been decompressed with a hypodermic puncture before ascension form deep water. It'd be great if everyone did the slow ascension technique, but in this biz, you can almost never make that assumption. Alway QT, always medicate with a good antibiotic. Separate as everyone else has stated. Above all else, stay on top of water quality and feed a variety of foods. You gotta play the law of averages with some of these guys, and offer up as many options as possible for success.

DJ

 

[Outerbank]

I haven't been on the board for a week. Sorry to see this. Looks like a possible nasty bacterial infection. I hope things are going better.

 

[flameangel88]

You keep teasing me with those Venustus Kevin!!!

Somehow I missed a couple of posts here. It was gasman's Venustus picture that got me hooked on giving it a 2nd try. If you see his picture I know you'll be on the hunt for one or two.

 

[flameangel88]

Are you talking about right above the pectoral fin? If so, that's not really what it is. The bump is pretty large actually, but isn't discolored apart from a VERY (and I can't stress that enough) slightly red/purple thin line down the center. It's not a perfect circle, more of an oblique oval shape. Internal parasite?

If there's any redness I would bet it's infection. In that case the quicker you administer Maracyn 2 (or other antibiotic) the better. With any deepwater fish i treat with maracyn by the second or third day regardless.

 

[roktsintst]

Why regardless Kevin? Are you just assuming that the fish has a bacterial infection due to needling?

Im not anti this, Im just looking for more information...


Oh, If you have gasman's picture of the Venustus, shoot it my way!!!

 

[flameangel88]

I'm on the camp 'better safe then sorry' with deepwater fish when it comes to treating with possible infection. Maybe it's the luck of the draw but of the 7 Bandits I received 5 had signs of infection and 1 was treated by the vendor with broad spectrum. Six out of Eight Colin's and Venustus angels appears with infection. With that stat and I haven't come across any readings that Maracyn 2 is harmful I rather not chance it. I understand that of me not seeing any negative articles concerning the use of antibiotics may not necessarily mean it's okay/good to use but I think the possible good out weights the bad.

By no means I'm encouraging others to use this method as I don't have any scientific data to back this but just from personal experiences.


Ryan, the Venustus was posted here by gasman059
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1465214&highlight=venustus

 

[DJREEF]

If memory serves Maracyn 2 is Minocycline cut with B-vitamins. I've never used it in conjunction with treatment protocols for angels. My drug of choice has always been nitrofurazone (the green stuff) and sulfamethazine. I've used them together on more than one occasion, but consider that to be overkill, and to be honest might actually be too much for some of the more delicate Centropyges, since you effectively must double the dosages used for freshwater. This creates an increase in oxygen demand and consumption so circulation must be increased esp for hyper-respirators. With the additional stress involved in transit, and then in being QT'd in a bare bottom tank (foreign environment) liver toxicity can also be an issue as prolonged stress breaks down the hepatic system's ability to function properly. Antibiotic usage further complicates this. You have to monitor very closely during the first few days of administration. Since you may have no idea how the animal was captured any drugs or gases used during collection may also complicate hepatic/renal performance. The water quality has to be monitored twice daily during the process with multiple water changes per week advised with appropriate dosage administered in the replacement water. Erythromycin is also a fairly safe antibiotic that I've used on other critters, but not on angels. Unfortunately, there's still no guarantee. Some animals just never adapt.

DJ

 

[flameangel88]

Yes, whenever dealing with chem/med we've to monitor water paras much closer. After treating/dosing my DT I figured out it's much easier/cost effective to do it in a 40 QT with 60lbs LR. Whenever I feel the filter is not adequate in the QT I just add more LRs from the other tanks. I do keep 2 fish in the QT to maintain it year round.

ph drop has always been my problem whenever I dose Prazi or Cupramine where many other users didn't. I run a Eheim 2028 with just rubbles along with another canister filter with sponges for filtration plus a PH for flow. Few members here have used Maracyn 2 and Prazi at the same time without any ill effects and I've followed. Occasionally I've some angels that are sensitive to Prazi in which I need to perform WC midway through to alleviate stress but once they settle in I'll re-dose.

 

[LargeAngels]

I've always used a HOB filter in my QT's with the filter higher than the water line creating a waterfall affect. This seems to work very well for gas exchanges, plus some small PH's, and I haven't experienced any pH drops. I've used Cupramine, Prazipro and Maracyn II at the same time and haven't seen any issues. If angels react or are sensitive to Prazipro it may be like Jay Hemdal pointed out as an affect from the parasites dropping off leaving holes in the skin or from internal parasites dying.

My guess is that many of these deeper water fish get infections either from improper needling, swim bladder issues or dirty holding water. By the time we notice them it is usually too late. Swimming dead as Copps calls them.

 

[L8 2 RISE]

Sorry, been really busy so haven't had a chance to update you all. On Friday morning, the one with the bump was led on its side and had what looked like pulled cotton coming out of the large bump and the loose scale on the other side. I dosed prazipro Friday night, but before I did, I threw some clams by the half shell in and the healthy one immediately began eating them. Satrday morning, as expected, I found the one on its side dead. The one that was healthy was (and is) a lot more reclusive since I put the prazipro in the water, and hasn't eaten anything else, but from what I understand, that's expected from prazipro. I redosed yesterday, but I think I'm going to slowly start reverting to regular salt water tonight, and re-connect the tank to the main system. I'll then get him eating again if I can, and then see how he's doing and possibly do prazipro again. I haven't been able to find any Maracyn II, but I think I'll order it and dose that eventually as well. I have the tank just running with an airstone and powerhead and some LR in it. This last one looks absolutely fine, no blemishes or anything, and up until I dosed the prazipro, was very confident (compared to the others) and curious, and would come up to the glass when I was there to "check me out". I have pretty high hopes for it, so fingers crossed!

 

[jmccown]

Did they cover you on the guarantee on the 2nd one as well?

 

[L8 2 RISE]

Yep

 

[stunreefer]

FWIW, I've had fish stop eating and fish not stop eating on Prazi, more often the latter. An experienced fish keeper (who's posted in this thread already ) mentioned that fish without any issues (flukes, internal parasites) will generally keep eating through Prazi.

Regardless I always make sure that a fish is accepting foods and is nice and fat prior to treating with anything in case they do stop eating during treatment.

Best of luck with this guy!

 

[copps]

Hey Sam, I would remove the Prazipro as soon as you can and do a 100% water change on the QT (I regularly do 100% water changes on my QTs). With tough-to-adapt species like this it is especially important to feed early and often, and not submit them to any treatments for at least a few weeks (I prefer at least a month) when the fish otherwise looks good and is feeding. I would not expose this fish to your system water, as many times there are certain diseases present in our displays that will prey on these new and susceptible fish... These fish especially need to recoup fat reserves and adapt in as stress free an environment as possible... keeping them together, even with very little aggression, is stressful, as are treatments like Prazipro (think chemotherapy for humans).

Newly imported C. multifasciata are very touchy, even when 100% healthy, and many times starting an unnecessary treatment too early can set them back... priority 1 for new fish is getting them into a stress free clean environment... priority two is getting them feeding and adapted... priority three is then treating them on a preventative basis.

I always say "there are no angels that are hard to keep, only those that are hard to adapt," and that is the case with this species... I kept one for over four years and once they settle in they are as bulletproof as any other Centropyge. However, so many of these come in in that "living dead" category, where no treatment from us will help them. This species should be very expensive, as they are deep, reclusive, and tough to catch, but many collectors do not care because they get paid and hobbyists like us suffer the consequences... buying a conditioned fish that has been in captivity for weeks and is feeding and adapted will cost more but when you look at the survival rates it benefits you much more do do it that way. From my experience, specimens collected in the Marshall Islands tend to fare better when it comes to the adapting part...

Hope that helps...

Copps

 

[DJREEF]

Hey Sam, I would remove the Prazipro as soon as you can and do a 100% water change on the QT (I regularly do 100% water changes on my QTs). With tough-to-adapt species like this it is especially important to feed early and often, and not submit them to any treatments for at least a few weeks (I prefer at least a month) when the fish otherwise looks good and is feeding. I would not expose this fish to your system water, as many times there are certain diseases present in our displays that will prey on these new and susceptible fish... These fish especially need to recoup fat reserves and adapt in as stress free an environment as possible... keeping them together, even with very little aggression, is stressful, as are treatments like Prazipro (think chemotherapy for humans).

Newly imported C. multifasciata are very touchy, even when 100% healthy, and many times starting an unnecessary treatment too early can set them back... priority 1 for new fish is getting them into a stress free clean environment... priority two is getting them feeding and adapted... priority three is then treating them on a preventative basis.

I always say "there are no angels that are hard to keep, only those that are hard to adapt," and that is the case with this species... I kept one for over four years and once they settle in they are as bulletproof as any other Centropyge. However, so many of these come in in that "living dead" category, where no treatment from us will help them. This species should be very expensive, as they are deep, reclusive, and tough to catch, but many collectors do not care because they get paid and hobbyists like us suffer the consequences... buying a conditioned fish that has been in captivity for weeks and is feeding and adapted will cost more but when you look at the survival rates it benefits you much more do do it that way. From my experience, specimens collected in the Marshall Islands tend to fare better when it comes to the adapting part...

Hope that helps...

Copps

Good post. I have to concur. At this point you're battling stress more than any perceived disease agent. Bring any animal out of that stress cycle and they'll be able to handle just about anything on their own, given that the organism's fundamental needs are met. It's imperative that you find the animals comfort zone as quickly as possible. Continually stressing him with therapies is not the way to do this. I know, it feels like dancing on a razor sometimes, but the organism will tell you what's working, and what isn't.

DJ

 

[L8 2 RISE]

Thanks again all, I didn't mean to offend or make it seem like I was ignoring anyones advice on this thread, but as I go back and read it, there seems to be two different approaches: 1, treat as soon as the fish gets into the quarantine, or 2, get them eating and stable first and then treat. I was trying to lean towards the latter, but when the second angel started looking bad and dying, I panicked, made a few calls to some experienced people I trust a lot, and decided that I should treat. I'll do as you all say and get it in some good water as soon as I get home, and work on getting it eating. I'll also put a spare "whisper 30" filter on the tank and not put it on the main system. Should I put the activated carbon in the filter bag?

Thanks all again, and any suggestions you all have given or give are greatly appreciated.

 

[stunreefer]

Do you have a filter of sorts (HOB maybe) on the QT already?

I wouldn't recommend adding another (with "fresh" media) unless it's been running for a while.

 

[L8 2 RISE]

Not at the moment, just an airstone, but I can put a whisper 30 on tonight with a new whisper "bio-bag" but I'm not sure whether or not I should put the carbon into it? Would you suggest a different media?

Edit: Sorry, misunderstood your post the first go round. I don't have anything other than fresh media atm, but it's just a floss bag. What do you think?

 

[stunreefer]

I would run that on your sump for the DT for a while and allow the media to become colonized before tossing it on your QT. Best bet would be to add some LR rubble from your display or sump that's already "seeded".

You could run the whisper with a small amount of carbon to help remove the Prazi, but I wouldn't run any other "fresh" media in it (although you could place a bit of rubble in it).