Help! Flame angels in QT problems

[Mickey]

After a lot of research, I'm trying to add a small group of flame angels to my well established reef tank (225 gal tank).

I've been working with an online vendor who spent a couple of weeks putting a trio of flames together for me that appeared to get along. I received them over a week ago and they went into my quarantine tank.

They were all doing great until two days ago. Suddenly, one that I thought was the dominant one, started staying in hiding most of the time, though he did come out to feed. I added 1/2 dose of prazipro yesterday. This morning I found one angel actively swimming but at the very top of the tank which was unusual. The more dominant one was in his sleeping place but upside down.

I immediately pulled him out and put him in another tank I had ready (for another new fish I'm hoping to get next week). He's still alive but laying on the bottom. And one is dead in the original tank, and one still swimming at the top very actively. (not sure if this is the same one as earlier or the other one).

I don't know what to do. Please help.

I've had some people tell me that flame angels shouldn't be quarantined and this goes against my grain, but maybe that's correct. Is it? I see no outward signs on any of these fish.

Mickey

 

[Retired Reefer]

Have you checked Ammonia? Something I keep my eye on in QT. I have QTed Flame and Flameback no problem.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Have you checked Ammonia? Something I keep my eye on in QT. I have QTed Flame and Flameback no problem.

Yeah, my 1st thought is ammonia too. I'd do a big WC ASAP.
How were the fish acclimated to the QT? Are you thinking of copper? Flames are a fish that doesn't handle copper at all. Of course, all fish should be in a QT. I've never heard that FAs shouldn't be in a QT; except as an excuse not to do it. You did the right thing.

 

[Mickey]

Ammonia is at 0 and I monitor it regularly. No treatment in the tanks except for the 1/2 dose of prazipro last night.

I've got the ammonia badges on the tanks as well. I'll try a new test kit just in case.

It seems odd they'd be fine for a week and then suddenly have a problem with no warning signs at all and no outward signs of disease.

 

[Mickey]

Update - I double checked the ammonia with a relatively new Salifert test kit and it is indeed at 0.

Both angels died. I looked them over again and still saw no outward signs of any disease. One of them did have a kind of discoloration in the belly and up towards the gills. color seemed washed out of that area. Definitely in the skin and not just a coating.

The last remaining angel is still swimming at the top most of the time. I did a large water change and I'm slowing lowering the SG. I don't know what else to do.

This tank has been set up for over 7 years and I haven't added any animals in a long time. Is it common to lose fish in quarantine for no reason? It's very sad.

Mickey

 

[aquaph8]

Ive had the same experience with Flame angels twice now. They go from doing great in every way to dead almost over night. Ive had many other fish go throught the same QT without issue too. I blame collection, Ive seen the same thing happen in the LFS too, no sign of disease, eating well and then dead.

 

[Mickey]

I feel so responsible. Before I try again I need to understand what I could have/should have done differently.

My plan was:
One week in QT to recover from shipping followed by chloroquine phosphate and then two treatments with prazi pro. I'm presently waiting for the chloroquine phosphate to arrive, so I started with the prazi treatments first instead.

 

[flameangel88]

Here's my 2 cents. I would definitely QT and much easier to treat in smaller tank than a large DT. Give the new comer a week or 2 before treating any meds. If you are concern with flukes then I would give the fish a fresh water bath for a minute to a minute and a half and if you don't see any flukes fall off then continue to monitor for another week or two then perform another fresh water bath. Now you are coming into three weeks or so with the new fish and if you got them trained eating or they appear to be be healthy then I would go ahead with hypo for 8-9 weeks (in place of copper).

Is your QT new or do you keep it running year round? The reason I ask is that ammonia cycle happens very quickly and at times we may miss seeing any signs till its too late. I run mine 24/7 365 with 3 black mollies and a hawkfish and if water parameter is an issue I would be able to see. As with copper (cupramine) I have gone up as high as 0.9 for 5 days twice, hypo a few times and prazi treatments with my flame angels over the years without any problem. However, I've noticed they don't tolerate poor water especially after die-off in the DT when treating with copper. So definitely monitor ammonia level.

I've purchased pairs before (solded to me as a pair 1 large male and a smaller female) where the first 2 weeks they are fine as a pair then out of no where the male starts to chase the female and wants to kill her. I'm not sure if it's an new environment the female starts to change and the male sense it and keeping her from changing. I've lost a dominant male and the two females lived on for over a month as normal then I noticed both started to change toward male. Fight starts where the smaller one chasing the slightly larger one non-stop and if I didn't pull the weaker one out it would have been killed for sure. Now I've two males in different tanks. Looking back starting with 6 small ones (1 3/4 -2 1/4") weren't so bad where the aggression was spreaded out and the dominant male emerged on its own.

Hopefully you have better luck on your next batch.

 

[albano]

I've purchased pairs before (solded to me as a pair 1 large male and a smaller female) where the first 2 weeks they are fine as a pair then out of no where the male starts to chase the female and wants to kill her. I'm not sure if it's an new environment the female starts to change and the male sense it and keeping her from changing. I've lost a dominant male and the two females lived on for over a month as normal then I noticed both started to change toward male. Fight starts where the smaller one chasing the slightly larger one non-stop and if I didn't pull the weaker one out it would have been killed for sure. Now I've two males in different tanks. Looking back starting with 6 small ones (1 3/4 -2 1/4") weren't so bad where the aggression was spreaded out and the dominant male emerged on its own.

Flame, my pair have been getting along just fine...my LFS got in a large shipment of FAs last week, with a few 1+" females, and a very low price tag...do I dare add 2 more small females?

 

[flameangel88]

Flame, my pair have been getting along just fine...my LFS got in a large shipment of FAs last week, with a few 1+" females, and a very low price tag...do I dare add 2 more small females?

If I were you I would be happy with a pair that is doing well. The risk is high and to catch them if thing goes wrong is a pain. I am learning on this part after the years of headache and heartache. Its much easier to start out with more than trying to add later on and the only exception to this on dwarf is my lemonpeel pair where I dind't have any problem adding the second one (don't know if it has anything to do with it but the second one was a orangepeel).

 

[albano]

If I were you I would be happy with a pair that is doing well. The risk is high and to catch them if thing goes wrong is a pain. I am learning on this part after the years of headache and heartache. Its much easier to start out with more than trying to add later on

OK, thanks, that's good enough for me...
the LFS has a pair of Multifasciatus on hold/QT for me now...I haven't told the 10 other angels about that, yet!

 

[igot2gats]

Did your LFS have a guarantee - such as if the fish dies within 14 days, they'll replace it?

 

[MrTuskfish]

I feel so responsible. Before I try again I need to understand what I could have/should have done differently.

My plan was:
One week in QT to recover from shipping followed by chloroquine phosphate and then two treatments with prazi pro. I'm presently waiting for the chloroquine phosphate to arrive, so I started with the prazi treatments first instead.

Don't be so hard on yourself; fishermen in Indonesia use FAs as bait.
Do you know the origin of these fish? I'm convinced that Flame Angels from places like Hawaii (of course)Tahiti, Christmas Island & the Marshall Islands (et al) do much better than those from Indonesia and other "Indo-Pacific" areas. This is just a guess, based on the amount of time I spend on our forum (never in my underwear!); but there seems to be a big problem with Flames, like Chromis lately. Flames are not a fish for very new hobbyists or new tanks; but they are often sold as such---I know this doesn't apply in your case.

 

[albano]

Do you know the origin of these fish? I'm convinced that Flame Angels from places like Hawaii (of course)Tahiti, Christmas Island & the Marshall Islands (et al) do much better than those from Indonesia and other "Indo-Pacific" areas. This is just a guess, based on the amount of time I spend on our forum (never in my underwear!); but there seems to be a big problem with Flames, like Chromis lately.

1st...why can't you wear underwear when you're on the forum?

2nd...apparently the suppliers are bringing in 'cheap' FAs...for the past few months the LFS has had/sold large amounts each week for ~$25 retail!

 

[flameangel88]

Price has to do with timing. I have seen LA, RHS (in the past with Max) with FAs at $23 in the past. Look at black tangs lately over $500 and last Fall was down to $300 something.

PIA have some very nice looking HI & CI FA pairs but you have to be quick to pull the trigger when it goes up on their site.

Imo when it comes to delicate fish look beyond price and go with the most reliable source even if the price is double or triple what you can find as the lowest. If you have to replace them once your cost is double and...

Timing, I have seen many good sales but timing is bad for me most of the time. Need more tanks to take advantage of those good sales...hehe.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Buying a Flame from Indonesia or the 'Indo_Pacafic" at any price isn't my idea of a good deal. Find out where the fish come from. Good online dealers will always tell you.