Help ICH

[Conesus_Kid]

Well said, Tom.

I, as well wonder why there is so much "mystery" (and myth) surrounding this well-researched and documented parasite.

Most of the "stress-related" fish deaths that occur after removal are caused by improper treatment tank setup, (ammonia).

 

[terry4505]

I have read a lot of the literature on the parasite, and I think I am pretty well versed in the life-cycle and treatments. What I know, for experience with my tank in particular, is that I have a hippo tang that I introduced in the winter (January I think) that has occasionally shown signs of the parasite (a few white spots here and there) and once, when I did a three day lights out for cyano treatment it was covered in white spots.

I have kept up with the water quality, feed often with a balanced diet. I tried a number of times to carefully remove the fish from the tank, and short of tearing the live rock down and pulling everything out, it was not possible without stressing the fish further.

6 months later, the tang continues to have an occasional white spot, eats great, swims all day. The other inhabitants, yellow tang, copper banded butterfly, 3 pajama cardinals, flame angel and mandarin goby, are all healthy and eating and show no visible signs of stress.

I realize that "waiting and seeing" is not a real method for dealing with the parasite. But, I have not seen an increase, at all, in the number of visible parasites on the hippo tang in six+ months. I realize I just could be lucky, I realize that this is just anecdotal evidence. But, waiting has worked for me, and my tank/fish, and I will continue to do this until the circumstances change.

All this being said, I have found the advice and information provided by the people here to absolutely invaluable, and will continue to ask questions as often as they come up. I would not have the tank that I do if not for the community here.

 

[tmz]

Had a hippo tang like that when I first started and didn't quarantine. Probably weak ich strain. It likely developed partial immunity over time and then maybe the parasite strain finally expired. I still have it . It's eight years old fat and happy and hasn't had any signs of ich in years but it took several years for it to stop showing up.
Stress would bring would bring it out,even a tank cleaning , new fish got it too; some died. A two degree temp swing ot 82 or so would cause a swarm of paraistes. dfinally I stopped adding fish for about 18 months. In retrospect, I would have taken the tank down but understand why you don't. I think my system is ich free now and haven't seen any on the over 40 fish I keep in more than 5 years. Fish have been added . The latest just 3 weeks ago. They are quarantined and pre treated via tank transfer and a period of qt observation.
There was one study that suggested a single strain without an opportunity for cross feritlization with another strain would wane in about a year, Some well respected folks refute that but I'm inclined to think at some point the inbreeding weakens the strain in the tank if no others are introduced.
Turning the lights out probably boosted the cyst "hatch" rate. .They usually leavethe cyst in the middle of the night ;some have even tried treatment of 24 hours lights on.

 

[tmz]

I would emphasize that while the tang survived, it likely would have suffered less with proper treatment and the other fish that died during that period of about 2 yrs to 3 years probably didn't need to as I avoided looking at the ich for the disgusting persistent killer that it is.

 

[DEEP BLUE SIX]

I think most people know or are educated here that the best method is quarantine for all fish(as they are purchased)before adding them to your "clean" DT.

Secondly the best method for treating fish with Ich is copper in an isolation tank. Guaranteed and agreed. I've successfully used both that and hyposalinity more than once. With NO problems.

But depending on personal choice (per how it's "going" per say in ones particular tank) it's not always chosen or the desired method right away.
I realize for some situations in some peoples tanks, this could mean death for a certain ich infested fish. But Not always. Depending on ones particular experience with an ich strain in a particular tank.

Some have found that pulling part their whole reef was not always the best thing to do. Waiting and seeing... LOL Not really a good term for describing an alternative used by many to copper or other treatments. Many have had success with it through the vitamins and extra feeding. Some have kicked it and some have then later chosen to tear down and copper treat their fish.Depending on how bad the strain case was.

I have seen many have success treating with natural methods. Sometimes it works and is worth not tearing down the whole reef. Yes. Sometimes it's a good chance it may not work good enough for a certain fish or fishes.
But I know many people that have had success before jumping to hypo or copper in an iso tank. That's all that is being said here.

Terry as you said: "I realize that "waiting and seeing" is not a real method for dealing with the parasite. But, I have not seen an increase, at all, in the number of visible parasites on the hippo tang in six+ months. I realize I just could be lucky, I realize that this is just anecdotal evidence. But, waiting has worked for me, and my tank/fish, and I will continue to do this until the circumstances change."

I don't really think you were "waiting & seeing" just because you didn't treat with a medication in a treatment tank. You were doing what you could naturally to help. Sometimes not good enough perhaps. But like many peoples cases.. it saved you a tear down and your fish did recover. Waiting and seeing.. again probably not a good term...

In my personal experience, all the methods have worked for me. Copper, hypo and treating with waterchanges, feeding/vitamins.(which may not be doing anything as in a chemical to "kill" the parasite but often it works.
Thus is the same experience by many in the reef shop business. They've been there and done that. Many well known reefers we know in the industry have done it in some cases without meds or hypo either. A choice I guess. Not always wise for some. But you can't say it doesn't work at all.

TMZ, I'm taking it that the time you spoke of you didn't treat outside your DT. Qoute: "Had a hippo tang like that when I first started and didn't quarantine. Probably weak ich strain. It likely developed partial immunity over time and then maybe the parasite strain finally expired. I still have it . It's eight years old fat and happy and hasn't had any signs of ich in years but it took several years for it to stop showing up.
Stress would bring would bring it out,even a tank cleaning"

But it got over and never had any again. It wasn't your approved method and "maybe" your fish suffered more than they had to. But proof that "sometimes" these things can work out that way. Not saying it's the best and sure way. It's not. But sometimes an option some people try and watching and feeding everyday, revisiting the decision do I take them out today or not?? and it keeps getting better until it's over... Happens.

I'm sure many people you've dealt(purchased from/shared with etc) with over the years have done the same thing. I know some of them too. People don't always rip down reef tanks immediately with the first sign of ich.

But if you want to go through it, one thing is for sure. Done correctly, you'll have no problem curing your fish in the quarantine tank.

 

[DEEP BLUE SIX]

Not trying to be a jerk here or anything.

But this was posted by someone else:

"
1. Garlic is a nice appetite enhancer for some fish, nothing more .

2. Cleaner shrimp don't eat the parasite ;they pick at the wounds.

3. It's a parasite and it will attack a healthy or a sick fish with equal ferocity: it's not an immune system issue per se. Fish should always be fed well and kept in high quality water..

4. UV's won't kill this parasite ;it's too big and even if the uv is enormous it won't kill cysts or parasites that don't pass through it.

5. Reef safe potions that effectively remove this parasite don't exist. "

Others take on that (not just my opinion):

1. If things were read correctly.. it was pointed out(previous to that post) that all "garlic" is.. is an "appetite enhancer." Nothing more. I pointed out it doesn't hurt anything. But if your fish ARE eating well.. it's not necessarily needed either for any purpose point.

2. ACTUALLY: Cleaner Shrimp DO remove cystic parasites. The cyst is the parasite before it bursts into more free swimming ones again. Cleaner shrimp can not go after the possible many invisible free swimming Ich. But they do pick off cystal parasites on the fish. Not "curing" a mass complicated problem per say.. BUT definitely helping things and helping the fish.. to an extent. Will it cure the whole tank problem? NO of course not. But don't mis count the value when it's there. Something that is a fact witnessed by hobbyists and studied by marine biologists alike for decades. A natural remedy available to the fish for help.

3. It IS a parasite and it will "try to" attack a healthy or a sick fish with equal ferocity. However, not always able to do so with each/any given fish. Some fish ARE more Immune period. "Fish should always be fed well and kept in high quality water" AGREED in full. But the point was that increased water changes do often make positive results. It can not eliminate the problem, but does "disrupt" the cycle of at least some of the Ich. Perhaps read well known reports from some famous reef hobbyists. It helps.

4. By the way, Yeah: UV can not effect Cyst parasites attached to fish. However, If rated correctly to gallons of system, per hour, and correct wattage... UV DOES KILL free swimming Ich that pass thru the UV. I think the public aquariums and hobbyists(that do use it) alike- would be surprised to know their UV has no positive effects at all.. for purpose they were made for.

5. There are no reef safe "potions" that "remove" Ich per say, the way an actual medicinal substance like copper or malachyte blue would. However, "Herbtania" by Microbe-lift does have some positive effects on helping to disrupt the Ich cycle when used in conjuction with other things like the water changes, reduced skimming and feeding extra. Many hobbyists have shown results and pictures throughout days to weeks of treating. I'm not going to copy these here, but they can be searched and found. You will find the stories could go both ways. But many reports are extremely positive. Including my own, not reported anywhere but here. I know shop "name" not dropped on purpose that doesn't just sell it, but uses it too. It's not a cure like a chemical medicine. But it is an "AID" that is reef safe.

Finallly- "Myth" the only complete "Myth" is that there is such a thing as a "clear" and parasite free reef tank once Ich has been killed off entirely by removing all fish for 2-3 months. It will work. But Ich can still come back into your system afterward in the future. Even with a quarantine for every fish first. Water transfer, Rock and corals spread it if they have some living in or on their surfaces. Often many are not allowed to mature much and die off in a very healthy reef tank with Strong Immune system fish. Thats why you see no outbreaks for years or very week ones that go away without tearing down the reef.

MO, in an older tank very well established, fully scaped with old rock and mature corals... I would resist at least at first.. tearing it down.

Perhaps newer less stable tanks with possibly less resistant fish- a tear down "might" be wiser. Depending on what things look like to the tank owner.
We all dote over our tanks... So one would think rather quickly we could make a decision or change it up again if we have to.

Watching conditions DAILY and as much as possible is the "key" if you ask me.

I've used them all. Rid-Ich, COPPER, Hyposalinity( as well as combos of both) AND the natural methods with monitoring. ALL have worked for me in different cases. I will say that my "older" fish and "more established" tanks were more responsive to not ripping down the reef. "If thats a Method" LOL
Than those with less age.

 

[NirvanaFan]

5. There are no reef safe "potions" that "remove" Ich per say, the way an actual medicinal substance like copper or malachyte blue would. However, "Herbtania" by Microbe-lift does have some positive effects on helping to disrupt the Ich cycle when used in conjuction with other things like the water changes, reduced skimming and feeding extra. Many hobbyists have shown results and pictures throughout days to weeks of treating. I'm not going to copy these here, but they can be searched and found. You will find the stories could go both ways. But many reports are extremely positive. Including my own, not reported anywhere but here. I know shop "name" not dropped on purpose that doesn't just sell it, but uses it too. It's not a cure like a chemical medicine. But it is an "AID" that is reef safe.

Finallly- "Myth" the only complete "Myth" is that there is such a thing as a "clear" and parasite free reef tank once Ich has been killed off entirely by removing all fish for 2-3 months. It will work. But Ich can still come back into your system afterward in the future. Even with a quarantine for every fish first. Water transfer, Rock and corals spread it if they have some living in or on their surfaces. Often many are not allowed to mature much and die off in a very healthy reef tank with Strong Immune system fish. Thats why you see no outbreaks for years or very week ones that go away without tearing down the reef.

I've used them all. Rid-Ich, COPPER, Hyposalinity( as well as combos of both) AND the natural methods with monitoring. ALL have worked for me in different cases. I will say that my "older" fish and "more established" tanks were more responsive to not ripping down the reef. "If thats a Method" LOL
Than those with less age.

I've read some of the success stories with Herbtana. I've read just as many people say that it doesn't work. Honestly, in my opinion, it probably helps the fish feel a bit more comfortable, but I don't think it does much. The whole "treat for 10 days" happens to be about the life cycle of the visible stage of ich. I don't think it will clear your tank of ich.

You say that that the only myth is an ich free tank. If the fish have been treated and have no ich, and all the ich in the display tank has died from being left fallow for 2 months, there is no ich. When you introduce the fish back in the tank, there is no ich. It's not a myth. You are right though, ich can hitch-hike on corals, snails, rock, etc. If you want to be totally 100% sure that you have an ich free tank, you have to quarantine EVERYTHING. There are people that do this. I do not add a single thing to my breeding system with quarantining it. Rocks, fish, everything gets quarantined. I also don't cross contaminate anything. Feeding utensils, powerheads, water buckets, etc. My breeding system is 100% ich free. I am totally sure of that.


Using multiple methods to get rid of ich is dangerous. Using copper and hypo stresses the fish out and is definitely not suggested.

I have yet to read a study where they found ich parasites in the cleaner shrimps stomach. I have read where they did not find the parasite though. Even if they do eat it, or pick it off, they don't help the fish to not get infected.

You would have to have an extremely large UV sterilizer in order for it to have much of an impact on the ich.

Basically, when your fish have ich, you have two options. Ride it out and hope they get better and don't contract much of the parasite, or get rid of it. I wouldn't want to have little things biting and attacking me (like fleas... any number of fleas), so I treat my fish. If others want to ride it out and try to let their fish try to beat it, that's fine too. Everyone can do as they wish.

 

[DEEP BLUE SIX]

Well put and sensible.

I don't disagree with some specifics you point out. Just agree that there are differences with how certain things are perceived as to how they work or don't. If they help in the experience of some and not for some others.

I think in a great deal of cases treatment outside the DT is warranted for fish.
AND MOST effective. Leaving a tank fishless for 2-3 months will clear it of the parasite too. I've done it myself.

But just pointing out that many people in certain cases do try a more conservative approach if it does not worsen and does show signs of improvement... many times this is done with success.. eventually with no return of Ich at least in the current time period of several months to years.
All without the stressing of coral and microrock life disturbing the whole reef.

How many people in the whole hobby quarantine EVERYTHING? For example, many (but not all or the majority) quarantine Corals and Rock too. When "one" does that, do they use a test fish in the coral &/or Rock quarantine tank?

My synopsis would say in most common cases of that, the answer is "NO".

So if your new corals / rock etc spend a few weeks in qt, how do you know they may have invisible hitchhiker parasites in the water in them or on the surfaces of them.. still living?? Or not have them?

Unless you keep a test fish such as an ich magnet tang, in your coral / rock qt... how can you know? you can't. and if you did and it got ich... you couldn't treat the coral / rock qt without killing the coral or ruining the rock. You would have to take out the test fish and treat it in your seperate fish qt.

Then there would still be some Ich in that coral / rock qt that the fish came out of. How would you rid it, before putting them in your dt and possibly pulling over some ich with them into your dt...? You Couldn't. The fact is anything could have some from another original source and get into your main dt through some unforseeable transfer.

Many people believe their disease free tank and fish in it, were exposed from some other source such as new rock or a coral. Cause they qt all their fish...
But it is often hard to foresee other possible transfers of ich somehow.

A rock/ Coral DT really only reduces the chances of various coral diseases which may appear... from being spread to your dt corals or various rock pests hiding which one may be able to eradicate before adding to your main dt.

But a qt for rock/coral really does nothing for fish parasites..


I think some methods are judged to be best by a case by case basis.
As seen by the tank owner that particular time. As I said, I've used all the treatments and succeeded with each in different cases. The way I proceeded was based on factors involved in each case and knowing "my" tanks.
Not just an iso tank and copper every time just because it is the quickest and best method to kill the ich on fish. IT IS.

But sometimes the conservative approach was a choice that still worked fully. With less turmoil involved.

I appreciate your comments. I think every ones thoughts wanting to help are valued. I appreciate that many can accept different opinions and methods, that have all worked for different people, if not everyone.

It's good we can be constructively expressive of some differing opinions without having to be disrespectful toward each others experiences.

Some on here tend to be more absolute in their resolve that it is their way or the wrong way. I find it to be much more in the middle of the road(in reality) than either opinion being wrong to an absolute.

 

[NirvanaFan]

How many people in the whole hobby quarantine EVERYTHING? For example, many (but not all or the majority) quarantine Corals and Rock too. When "one" does that, do they use a test fish in the coral &/or Rock quarantine tank?

My synopsis would say in most common cases of that, the answer is "NO".

Not many people quarantine everything. You shouldn't use any fish in the coral/rock qt tank though. You basically run it fallow for 4 weeks.

So if your new corals / rock etc spend a few weeks in qt, how do you know they may have invisible hitchhiker parasites in the water in them or on the surfaces of them.. still living?? Or not have them?

If you leave it with no fish for 4 weeks, the ich will have completed the life cycle where it is on the rocks/coral and you can be sure it is ich free.

It's good we can be constructively expressive of some differing opinions without having to be disrespectful toward each others experiences.

Some on here tend to be more absolute in their resolve that it is their way or the wrong way. I find it to be much more in the middle of the road(in reality) than either opinion being wrong to an absolute.

I agree with you 100%. Everyone can have their own opinions and run their tank how they want. That is part of what makes this hobby different for everyone.

 

[tmz]

But this was posted by someone else:

That was me.

Others take on that (not just my opinion):
That implies sources in a thinly veiled effort to elevate personal opinions.Who are the others?

2. ACTUALLY: Cleaner Shrimp DO remove cystic parasites. The cyst is the parasite before it bursts into more free swimming ones again. Cleaner shrimp can not go after the possible many invisible free swimming Ich. But they do pick off cystal parasites on the fish. Not "curing" a mass complicated problem per say.. BUT definitely helping things and helping the fish.. to an extent. Will it cure the whole tank problem? NO of course not. But don't mis count the value when it's there. Something that is a fact witnessed by hobbyists and studied by marine biologists alike for decades. A natural remedy available to the fish for help.

It is not a fact. Gut analyses of these invertebrates eveidences none of these silcate protozoans. It has been studied. What studied bioogists are you referring to?


the only complete "Myth" is that there is such a thing as a "clear" and parasite free reef tank


How do you know that? It's not true. Ich doesn't magically appear in a glassbox. It's imported and can be erradicated but it's not easy.


4. By the way, Yeah: UV can not effect Cyst parasites attached to fish. However, If rated correctly to gallons of system, per hour, and correct wattage... UV DOES KILL free swimming Ich that pass thru the UV. I think the public aquariums and hobbyists(that do use it) alike- would be surprised to know their UV has no positive effects at all.. for purpose they were made for.

How big does it have to be? How much dwell time ? Study that and the impracticallity of size will become obvious.What public aquariums and what testing have they done if any? They are used in commercial hatcheries and other fish facilities primarily for bacteria ,maybe a little algae too but those are single pass operations not closed recirculating systems where remaining micro organisms just grow back ( equilibrate) to replace those that have left as longas theri is a food supply.

"Herbtania" by Microbe-lift does have some positive effects on helping to disrupt the Ich cycle when used in conjuction with other things like the water changes, reduced skimming and feeding extra.

What's in it?

Other than testimonials ,likely from a view through rose colored glasses and marketing hype what evidence is there to support this claimed benefit from it . I observed it in use in an lfs over multiple occasions with no benefit whatsoever.
The other things waterchanges, skimming and so on just mean practice goodhusbandry. One needs to do that with or without ich., Bringing them up just clouds the issue.

Some fish ARE more Immune period.

What fish are those? Surely you don't mean completely. If you do, explain how that would happen.

I don't think copper is the best method for treatment either.

Some on here tend to be more absolute in their resolve that it is their way or the wrong way. I find it to be much more in the middle of the road(in reality) than either opinion being wrong to an absolute.

That would be me too.

"Their way or the wrong way". If you wan't to say that just say it;

 

[tmz]

TMZ, I'm taking it that the time you spoke of you didn't treat outside your DT. Qoute: "Had a hippo tang like that when I first started and didn't quarantine. Probably weak ich strain. It likely developed partial immunity over time and then maybe the parasite strain finally expired. I still have it . It's eight years old fat and happy and hasn't had any signs of ich in years but it took several years for it to stop showing up.
Stress would bring would bring it out,even a tank cleaning"

But it got over and never had any again. It wasn't your approved method and "maybe" your fish suffered more than they had to. But proof that "sometimes" these things can work out that way. Not saying it's the best and sure way. It's not. But sometimes an option some people try and watching and feeding everyday, revisiting the decision do I take them out today or not?? and it keeps getting better until it's over... Happens.

This is one of the first marine fish I ever had.. I thought I knew a few things but I didn't. Took the hope and cope road paved with uvs
( I have 4 of them onthe shelf), elixirs, garlic, slecon,extra food, tight parameter controls,etc. I was desparate to be right and to avoid the seemingly difficult proven methods. . It took years and other fish including newly introduced ich free speciemns got it died as a result and sparked outbreaks. So if you choose to keep ich in the tank ,it's probably not a good idea to add new fish for a very long time after symptoms dissappear. Better to actually deal with it deal with it early. My point is to encourage folks to avoid it and kill it when they do see it. It's hard medicine to take but well, worth it , ime.

 

[GMaquarium]

well ive been adding garlic to everything food algae clips into the water and stuff seems to be working hopefully it clears!

There is some great info here, although to be honest I skimmed through about half of this thread. I can't help to think that the origional guy is still puzzled. Facts or not my inference has to be that origional posted is now confused.

Sometimes too much info can be difficult to process for a new hobbyist. If its a matter of sick fish now in my tank. The what to do advice to best help should be direct and straight forward. Keep it simple guys.

 

[tmz]

Hello GM,

It is simple but not easy. Remove the fish from the tank gently as soon as possible . Treat them with tank transfer, copper or hypo salinty and leave the display fishless for 72 days. The rest of it is noise. I offered to give specific advice if the op wanted it regarding effective treatment. The choice is his.

Even at the risk of making it seem more complicated ; misinformation needs to be challenged.

 

[DEEP BLUE SIX]

To keep it simple as G put it.. and G is right. We strted to fo off a bit and it wasn't helping the OP I'm sure.

1. If you want to cure your fish faster use a treatment tank oe your QT to cure them. Leave the DT VOID of Fish for 2-3 months. This will get rid of all the Ich the fastest and most efficient way possible.

2. If you don't want to go through a teardown and it looks as though things may be ok to try... and leave alone with extra feeding and water changes and safe stimulating aids... it WILL take MUCH Longer and possiblyt a few cycles of ich for it all to disapear. But it can sometimes work and after a while have NO more appear again in your tank. I've done it. This eliminates a lot of the teardown turmoil, extra tanks and such. It not always for every hobbyist. But has been easier for some in some cases.

I've done both successfully. It's your choice Aaronlp.
Good luck to you though. I think we all wanted to just help a bit. Things spiral off sometimes when re posters with their opinions tend to be less constructive in their criticism and more absolute in telling other they are wrong. It's not effective way to communicate unfortunetly. Tends to set others off and it goes back n forth. Sorry. Hope things work out for you. Whatever way to choose to treat.

 

[DEEP BLUE SIX]

TMZ: your methods WORK Hands DOWN. They've worked for me.

It's still not everyones choice all the time. That's my point.

It's NOT "misinformation" either.... sir... LOL

People that live by absolutes just because they are most effective, should be challanged as well. The most effective methods for particular reasons are not "always" used by everyone every time.

I'm glad your not in government. It seems people wouldn't have choices.

 

[GMaquarium]

great opinions and advice. Thanks guys

 

[tmz]

TMZ: your methods WORK Hands DOWN. They've worked for me.

It's still not everyones choice all the time. That's my point.

It's NOT "misinformation" either.... sir... LOL

People that live by absolutes just because they are most effective, should be challanged as well. The most effective methods for particular reasons are not "always" used by everyone every time.

I'm glad your not in government. It seems people wouldn't have choices.

It's a choice but it's not going to be based on any factual information if hope and cope remedies and snake oils predominate.. I always tell folks it's their choice but I strive exercise discipline in separating opinion ,anecdote ,wishlful thinking and data.

I did have a 34 year successful career in government and a few years in the military . Most of it was spent and championing choice for developmentally disabled people and the folks who served them throughout.

Your response is out of line. It's unfortunately typical though. When there are no facts to support a point of view turn to personal attack and characterization even if it's as ill informed as your other positions.

Just answer the questions posed regarding your positions if you want an honest discussion. You haven't because you obviously can't and just like listening to yourself.

 

[Dave VG]

Hello GM,

It is simple but not easy. Remove the fish from the tank gently as soon as possible . Treat them with tank transfer, copper or hypo salinty and leave the display fishless for 72 days. The rest of it is noise. I offered to give specific advice if the op wanted it regarding effective treatment. The choice is his.

Even at the risk of making it seem more complicated ; misinformation needs to be challenged.

Very good advice Tom. The OP needs to chime in here and let us know how things are going.

 

[tmz]

Thanks Dave, There are choices, obviously .

In my opinion , they are :

Keep it out of the tank via quarantine and a gentle prophylactic treatment.

or

If it gets in choose an effective treatment(the science on this is clear) to eradicate it.There are 3 broadly used and proven methods each with pros and cons to choose from.

or

Keep a tank with ich in it for a long time and hope some of your fish survive it and it goes away in a year or two or three.

It's pretty simple.

 

[DEEP BLUE SIX]

It's a choice but it's not going to be based on any factual information if hope and cope remedies and snake oils predominate.. I always tell folks it's their choice but I strive exercise discipline in separating opinion ,anecdote ,wishlful thinking and data.

I did have a 34 year successful career in government and a few years in the military . Most of it was spent and championing choice for developmentally disabled people and the folks who served them throughout.

Your response is out of line. It's unfortunately typical though. When there are no facts to support a point of view turn to personal attack and characterization even if it's as ill informed as your other positions.

Just answer the questions posed regarding your positions if you want an honest discussion. You haven't because you obviously can't and just like listening to yourself.

WOW Really TMZ...??

Who's personal attacking here? Really? from my last post: a one liner comment with the word government in it, being used loosely & referring (not to what you actually did in life) but just making an analogy to someone (yourself) who regardless of the hard proven facts that are true.. which your trying to put across in your point by listing them like an absolute... is actually someone who insists on cramming a dogmatic one way of thinking down any ones throat that sees options that differ even if they are not the best ones... REALLY??

It is ok to constructively differ in opinion. But when someone like you has to re post someone elses comments in order, it does tend to be seen as not expressing constructively but rehashing the comments to point out in a manner somewhat inflamatory to the other person. Actually a way of personal attack by pointing out (in your opinion) everything that is wrong. Offer your facts & opinion.(I don't disagree with some) However, it seems that pointing out what's wrong with someone elses posts is either as equally important to you or more important to you, than helping the original poster.

Instead of constructively JUST voicing your facts and difference.. You chose a personal attack on someone elses experience. Sorry you did not have the same or agree. But it does not give you the right to call someone out in the picking apart way you did by rehashing their posts. You re-posted them first before anything even happened between us. But I'm a personal attacker for making a one line comment??? After all that from you?? LOL You were rude to me from the beginning.

The "facts" that are on my side are... though it's not the proven best method... it has been successfully accomplished by many reefers. Not just me. The first time I ever tried it, it was suggested by a couple other people who had done it. One of them(not in this thread)owns "a" reef shop. But i guess he's wrong, according to you and all the facts of science base on reefkeeping... Whether it's in the your journals of reef experience or not, it's still used by some people in some cases and has worked for them sometimes.

My response is out of line?? LOL
One of your responses seemed to angle on pointing out ones personal life experience which has nothing to do with anything here except personal horn tooting..

"I did have a 34 year successful career in government and a few years in the military . Most of it was spent and championing choice for developmentally disabled people and the folks who served them throughout."

That's commendable sir. Good for you. But people here are supposed to care because??? Are they supposed to like you even more because they know about that commendable fact now?? If it is?? I suppose perhaps you helped many of my friends and their families then? What do you know of my Life and what I've done? Nothing. This really isn't the place to boast or talk about it. But you seem to.

My family has been in the service since the cival war. My father is a decorated MS.(ARMY) Brother in law(Marines) Cousin Secret Service, My mentor from my work place(former Marine)was a navy cross winner in Vietnam and spent time in Ka Sahn during the Tet Offensive. My best child hood friend(Secret Squirrel at SOC SMG Security- Iraq/Afghanistan) We've seen it all... parts etc.. Death. What makes you so special? Ever **** off a soldier. I don't need to brag about myself sir.

Unfortunate that you do. One would think that the "Discipline" that the service taught you, would at least help refrain you from feeling the need to bring it up. Like your special or something? A real Hero or strong representative works on boosting others not foretelling their own achievements.

Go ahead and post another TMZ...
I'm DONE. Personally you come across as a self proclaimed master of telling everyone how it is and everything you've done. Maybe you've done good things. Try to stop acting the opposite with your attitude of putting others down and self promotion. Did that earn you good soldiers when you served??? heh. People don't earn anything by running their mouths against someone else. "I" didn't do that to you until now! My friends everywhere watch my back because when I disagree with people, I still give them respect. Your idea of respect even when you disagree is the kind that gets poeple killed when their in the field. Oh, but you already knew that government guy(you said it) and military man.

This stuff doesn't belong here. You started doing it. At least stay on topic and not off on a personal tangent about ones self!

Feel free to let everyone see your self rectifying post after this.
As I said, I'm DONE. Discipline will keep me from having to reply to your war of BS here any longer. Say what you will.

Sorry to the OP.(Aaron) I hope your problem get solved, even if it's taking the fish out. It "may" be best.. (that worked for me too. More than once. It is proven) Just watch your fish and carefully decide.

Let other people here know what happens. They do want to help.















Someone sensible would have left that alone.