Help Magnesio is went to heaven!

[AbrahamS]

This is 1 green acro! Losing his base!

 

[A. Grandis]

You recommended three water changes with a salt mix rich in magnesium and adding mag to the tank for an elevated magnesium level? I am not quite understanding that? Perhaps you thought his magnesium level was low?

Yeah, I've got totally mixed up there!! LOL!!! I've must got confused somehow"¦
Sorry, guys!

No, it is not necessarily good, but I'd rather have an elevated magnesium level than almost any other.

Look to any of the hundreds of accounts of Tech M treatment for bryopsis that have maintained 1800-2000 levels of mag in their systems for weeks on end, and you will find no reports of SPS RTN as a result of it.

The cause of RTN in an SPS system could be from many causes. OP has not posted any of his tank particulars. Pick one, any is just as likely as the other. In threads like these, the participants are blind with no system particulars given by the OP.

My advice to OP about his high magnesium level is to quit dosing magnesium if he is doing that. Test every other day, and let the mag level drop through use by the tank inhabitants.

Some Reefers look for an imbalance in their water chemistry to explain RTN/STN, when it is simply a matter of water flow, for example. SPS reefs when young have numerous small frags which don't require a ton of flow, but as these colonies grow and increase in size, they start to block and change the entire pattern of water movement in their tank. Mature colonies have areas that get more flow than others. I had STN in one of my earlier SPS tanks at several colony bases, and it was a simple matter of switching out the in-tank pumps for more powerful ones that solved the issue. My tank was fine with lower flow with a bunch of small sticks in the tank, but mature colonies need more flow to bring in food, O2/remove waste to the entire colony.

Diagnosing the OP's problem without system particulars is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

No, I didn't mean that the high Mg would be alone the reason for the RTN at all. I've meant that it could possibly give some stress to the corals (?) and perhaps contribute to the picture.

I know about those Bryopsis' fighters! I know they get the problem under control with the very high Mg, yes"¦

This is the first time I've heard abut RTN having something to do with water flow alone. Thanks for sharing. That's what I wanted to hear. I'm sure there will be more people with other types of observations"¦

Man, I've got confused up there!!! LOL!!

Grandis.

 

[A. Grandis]

I would blame driving nutrient levels too low via GFO and biopellets long before an elevated magnesium level. Just one of many things to consider. Pictures are often helpful if you have any. Also, how long have you had the WP 40's and did you notice issues starting when they were added?

So another thing that could cause RTN would be GFO, driving nutrients too low?

Grandis.

 

[A. Grandis]

What makes you think that all RTN is directly attributable to a pathogen? RTN is generally linked to a variety of stressful events and conditions and no pathogen needs to be present for it to happen. In fact, RTN and STN are made up hobby term for the most part, tissue necrosis in general is a stress related malady that may have some links to a disease or pathogen, but by no means do that pathogen have to be present for it to occur.

I didn't know that. Long ago we thought it was caused by bacteria when coral was stressed somehow.

Grandis.

 

[A. Grandis]

This is how it looks the pocilleopora with RTN i will add some acros.... They are frags i dont have colonies jet......

I think that's caused mainly by insufficient light.
People call that STN.

Grandis.

 

[AbrahamS]

I think that's caused mainly by insufficient light.
People call that STN.

Grandis.

Insufficient light? Really? I hace 98 leds 3w of Reef breeders!

 

[AbrahamS]

what worries me is that not all my SPS are wrong. I have more acros, montis, challices and are all well......

 

[A. Grandis]

So what do you think the problem comes from?
What would you call that?

Grandis.

 

[prop-frags]

I would blame driving nutrient levels too low via GFO and biopellets long before an elevated magnesium level. Just one of many things to consider. Pictures are often helpful if you have any.

++1
Stability of params is essential. Even if moderately elevated or depressed, as long as params are stable, SPS will usually be healthy. It's rapid changes or swings that usually cause RTN/STN.

As for that RTN "pathogen" comment, I've never read any reliable evidence of that. Do you have any research you can point to?

 

[A. Grandis]

++1
Stability of params is essential. Even if moderately elevated or depressed, as long as params are stable, SPS will usually be healthy. It's rapid changes or swings that usually cause RTN/STN.

As for that RTN "pathogen" comment, I've never read any reliable evidence of that. Do you have any research you can point to?

Just read page 653 of The Ref Aquarium Science, Art, and Technology, by Delbeek and Spring, so you can learn more about it"¦
Long ago, around mid 90's, the problem with RTN was know to be a bacterial problem. I don't understand why you guys are trying to change that.

I've heard so many people saying that nothing was changed in their systems and maintenance and the RTN still happened without mercy!! No, I don't believe only stability would to the trick! No way!
A good example was Dr. Sanjay's last episode. Nothing was changed and RTN killed lots of colonies.

I do believe that's pathogen (bacteria). No other explanation! It is hard to find out what bacteria is and probably nobody ever did a research and published anything yet, but trust me"¦ it has to be a serious pathogen behind that!

Grandis.

 

[A. Grandis]

Insufficient light? Really? I hace 98 leds 3w of Reef breeders!

I don't want even comment on LEDs.
They are just a hype of the market for newbies and experts to play with and spend their money and time. Not the real deal yet. Sorry!

Grandis.

 

[Boboli]

What is magnesio?

 

[A. Grandis]

What is magnesio?

He meant magnesium.

Grandis.

 

[AbrahamS]

Just read page 653 of The Ref Aquarium Science, Art, and Technology, by Delbeek and Spring, so you can learn more about it…
Long ago, around mid 90's, the problem with RTN was know to be a bacterial problem. I don't understand why you guys are trying to change that.

I've heard so many people saying that nothing was changed in their systems and maintenance and the RTN still happened without mercy!! No, I don't believe only stability would to the trick! No way!
A good example was Dr. Sanjay's last episode. Nothing was changed and RTN killed lots of colonies.

I do believe that's pathogen (bacteria). No other explanation! It is hard to find out what bacteria is and probably nobody ever did a research and published anything yet, but trust me… it has to be a serious pathogen behind that!

Grandis.

I Believe you, and i'm sure that RTN is not only for water condition changes i'm pretty sure it would by a bacterial problem. but whit al those years not knowing what causes it I'm not sure, this hobby has many years and causing the RTN is unknown? dont think so.....

I've heard of the best tanks collapse ... I've even seen in person as it is without any change as you say but I'm sure there are any changes without the owners realize... well thats my point of view.

Regards

What is magnesio?

sorry I meant magnesium my cellphone has autocorrect and its in spanish so it change it for correct word.... apologize

I don't want even comment on LEDs.
They are just a hype of the market for newbies and experts to play with and spend their money and time. Not the real deal yet. Sorry!

Grandis.

I have seen so many tanks running with LEDS, beautiful tanks with good coloration and growth without problems

 

[Peter Eichler]

Just read page 653 of The Ref Aquarium Science, Art, and Technology, by Delbeek and Spring, so you can learn more about it"¦
Long ago, around mid 90's, the problem with RTN was know to be a bacterial problem. I don't understand why you guys are trying to change that.

I've heard so many people saying that nothing was changed in their systems and maintenance and the RTN still happened without mercy!! No, I don't believe only stability would to the trick! No way!
A good example was Dr. Sanjay's last episode. Nothing was changed and RTN killed lots of colonies.

I do believe that's pathogen (bacteria). No other explanation! It is hard to find out what bacteria is and probably nobody ever did a research and published anything yet, but trust me"¦ it has to be a serious pathogen behind that!

Grandis.

There are plenty of other explanations... THere is a small amount of research to suggest that RTN may be bacterial. However, if we're going to accept RTN as a scientific designation for a disease caused by a bacterial, then I can assure you there are many many cases of things being called RTN that are not RTN. For instance, I've seen multiple instances of "RTN" from shipping stress and multiple other stressors over the years. I can assure you that those are not all due to some pathogenic bacteria. So, it gets confusing... Also, the R being rapid, this isn't generally something you can snap photos of from a progress standpoint.

 

[A. Grandis]

There are plenty of other explanations... THere is a small amount of research to suggest that RTN may be bacterial. However, if we're going to accept RTN as a scientific designation for a disease caused by a bacterial, then I can assure you there are many many cases of things being called RTN that are not RTN. For instance, I've seen multiple instances of "RTN" from shipping stress and multiple other stressors over the years. I can assure you that those are not all due to some pathogenic bacteria. So, it gets confusing... Also, the R being rapid, this isn't generally something you can snap photos of from a progress standpoint.

There is no studies suggesting the opposite, so for all purposes it is a bacterial pathogen. I'm sorry, but I don't need to prove my point here. All the RTNs are probably by pathogen due to stress. Bacteria takes advantage of the situation. They stay dormant in the system and wait for the right time to act.

How can you assure that?
I would say it's impossible to assure.

Grandis.

 

[Peter Eichler]

There is no studies suggesting the opposite, so for all purposes it is a bacterial pathogen. I'm sorry, but I don't need to prove my point here. All the RTNs are probably by pathogen due to stress. Bacteria takes advantage of the situation. They stay dormant in the system and wait for the right time to act.

How can you assure that?
I would say it's impossible to assure.

Grandis.

Are you really arguing that it's all bacterial and can't be caused by a stressor. So if I put put a coral in 50f water, or drop the PH to 7.0, or any numbers of things that I can assure me will cause rapid tissue necrosis, you would then argue that they lost their flesh because of a pathogenic bacteria? These are just more extreme examples of the kind of stressors I'm speaking of...

 

[A. Grandis]

Are you really arguing that it's all bacterial and can't be caused by a stressor. So if I put put a coral in 50f water, or drop the PH to 7.0, or any numbers of things that I can assure me will cause rapid tissue necrosis, you would then argue that they lost their flesh because of a pathogenic bacteria? These are just more extreme examples of the kind of stressors I'm speaking of...

Well, we're talking about RTN, not negligence, irresponsibility or craziness.

When people say that nothing was changed in the system and RTN went crazy killing their corals…
that is the subject. Please read and follow the context. Refer to the beginning of the discussion.

Grandis.

 

[Peter Eichler]

Well, we're talking about RTN, not negligence, irresponsibility or craziness.

When people say that nothing was changed in the system and RTN went crazy killing their corals"¦
that is the subject. Please read and follow the context. Refer to the beginning of the discussion.

Grandis.

If we got back to the priginal context and the issues we have corals that aren't even RTN'ing and are STN'ing. How about something less extreme, someone uses too much GFO and several frags RTN the following day. Is that because of a pathogen or because of stress from the driving a nutrient too low?

 

[A. Grandis]

If we got back to the priginal context and the issues we have corals that aren't even RTN'ing and are STN'ing. How about something less extreme, someone uses too much GFO and several frags RTN the following day. Is that because of a pathogen or because of stress from the driving a nutrient too low?

I'll bring back post #14 to answer that:

Hummm. It would be great if the more experienced Acropora reefers could give their inside here! This is a great subject!

There are many things that could trigger RTN and we guess it would be most of the time probably related to stress, dropping the colonies' immune system. First of all the RTN pathogen needs to be present in the system, so quarantine is what really will keep it out! High Mg would provoke an unusual/unatural water chemistry instability, at least while it's happening, and could stress some corals, of course. The stress would contribute to the RTN. Higher Mg level wouldn't be the responsible, if the pathogen wasn't introduced in the first place. Quarantine is what will save your corals from that tragedy. The worse part is that RTN can stay "dormant" for a while, and the hard decision now is to decide the best time range to observe the new additions in a separated tank.

Grandis.

:beer:

Grandis.