Help me set up a healthy fish tank... Please

[elegance coral]

A little background.

I'm an invertebrate guy. I've been keeping delicate corals and anemones for many years, but never got into fish that much. A little over a year ago, my wife talked me into setting up a display tank, loaded with fish. This has gone horribly wrong!!!!!! I always thought you fish people were on the easy side of the hobby. Man was I wrong. Lets just say I have a new found respect for what you do. Quarantine tank, hospital tank, medications, acclimation chamber, fish wont eat, bacterial infections, parasites, fish don't get along, fish die for no apparent reason.............. It's mind boggling!:uhoh3:

This is the embarrassing part. I've lost track of the number of fish I've purchased over the past year. Some have been moved to tanks in my "man cave", others have gone back to the LFS, but most have perished. In most cases, I didn't even know why they died. This has got to stop! After more than a year of working on this project, I have two clowns, two green chromis, one blue chromis, and one male lyretail anthias. I had the clowns for years before this project started, so they don't even count. The male anthias has stopped eating, and has a slight case of popeye on one side. Even his skin looks cloudy. Not that clean shinny look of a healthy fish. I'm lost! If he would eat, I could catch him and move him to a hospital tank. That's impossible because he's in a 200 gallon reef though. I won't be purchasing any more fish until a month or two after I know the anthias is dead or healthy.

Here's where you come in. What can I do to my system to make it more fish friendly? It is a 200 gallon reef with lots of rock, hiding places, and swimming room. A 120 gallon sump. I have a 29 gallon quarantine tank, and a 20 gallon hospital tank. I have one acclimation chamber, but I'll probably be buying more for adding multiple fish at the same time. The only filtration I have is a MSX300 skimmer, filter socks, and carbon/phosphate reactors. Should I purchase a UV or ozone? If so what size? What can I do to give my fish a better chance of survival??????? Am I even asking the right questions???????

Sorry for the long post and
thanks for any help
EC

 

[MCCOOL]

How are the fish dying? Any noticeable diseases or ailments? Are they just disappearing?

I think the best thing to do, is remove all the fish and properly qt them while leaving your tank fallow for ~8 weeks. This will eradicate any pathogens or parasites already in the tank, and allow you to start with a clean slate. You should also qt any new additions


I don't think UV or ozone is necessary

 

[aquaph8]

How are the fish dying? Any noticeable diseases or ailments? Are they just disappearing?

I think the best thing to do, is remove all the fish and properly qt them while leaving your tank fallow for ~8 weeks. This will eradicate any pathogens or parasites already in the tank, and allow you to start with a clean slate. You should also qt any new additions


I don't think UV or ozone is necessary

+1. Ive never used UV or ozone. If your gonna go 8 weeks though, might as well go 10. This will give you time to quarantine any fish you already have. Dont see your QT as only a hospital for fish but a stress free environment where there is no aggression and competition for food. Make sure you trust your fish source too cause it doesn't matter what you do if your fish are doomed to start with. I would hope this thread would get loads of info cause there are some really amazing fish people on this forum.

 

[Angel*Fish]

How are the fish dying? Any noticeable diseases or ailments? Are they just disappearing?

I think the best thing to do, is remove all the fish and properly qt them while leaving your tank fallow for ~8 weeks. This will eradicate any pathogens or parasites already in the tank, and allow you to start with a clean slate. You should also qt any new additions


I don't think UV or ozone is necessary

Sounds like the best plan to me.

I would start making lists of the fish I wanted -- then, post on RC to get opinions as to whether they will work as a group. Think in terms of the niches each fish fills in the tank - some like to perch on rock, some live in a hole on the sand, some in the water column, some are predators that graze rocks for small crustaceans, some graze rocks for other food like algae, etc.

Once that's done you'll also want to plan what order to add them in.

As a newbie to fish, you may need to work on recognizing signs of health when choosing fish.

 

[jcw]

I've gone the route of setting up 2 complete tanks. DT, sump, skimmer, LR, chaeto, powerheads, lights.

One is an observation/holding tank. The other is the nothing-goes-in-it-unless... tank.

If treatment is needed, a third hospital tank is on standby.

Observation periods of 6-8 weeks is just not compatible with a hastily set up, marginally equiped qt.

Just my opinion.

 

[elegance coral]

How are the fish dying?

Some died in QT. Never ate and just dropped off one by one. I bought three Bartletts. Two of them made it through QT. Once in the display, one made it about a month, and the other died a week or two later. I started out with four green chromis and four blue chromis. They have slowly been dropping off one by one. I have one blue chromis left and two green ones. They were the first fish I purchased for this project. I tried wrasses. Some of them killed each other, the others couldn't behave, so they were removed.

Any noticeable diseases or ailments?

No ich, or white spots. On some of the fish, I noticed a film over the fish right before it died. Kinda like excess slime or something?????? At one point, I kept the tank fishless for about five weeks, after noticing this "excess slime". I've had fish die a similar death afterwards though.

 

[jcw]

Just thinking out loud...

I wonder once past the qt issue(which you seem to be) if the constant dosing with additives, reactors, drips, etc we do in reef tanks is too much for some fish.

 

[elegance coral]

Just thinking out loud...

I wonder once past the qt issue(which you seem to be) if the constant dosing with additives, reactors, drips, etc we do in reef tanks is too much for some fish.

The only thing I dose is kalk in my ATO.

 

[elegance coral]

How long do most of you keep fish in the QT? I've only been keeping them in QT for about four weeks.

 

[suta4242]

6 weeks to 3 months, longer if theres a disease issue and longer if its a delicate fish that has a hard time adapting to captive conditions. For the latter I want the fish really healthy, eating well and accustomed to captivity before it goes into the display. IMO you have a much higher success rate if you do this (and yeah, I realise this approach is really conservative).

If you can pull them through quarantine - once they reach the display its usually easy sailing, so long as there are appropriate tankmates. JM2c

 

[ericauch]

Biggest question is, Is there any certain way the fish die? stress? Disease? in general when i introduce a new fish to my tank i feed the other fish. Then a small feeding later. Seems to make them less agressive. I rarely loose fish. I had a clown trigger that ate a couple had to get rid of him. Thats the name of the game. I baught a coral beauty that was extreamly aggresive. You really never know what your going to get. On the flip side i had a copper banded that never picked corals. Had a queen trigger that never picked corals or on anything for that matter.

If you have a certian fish that loves chasing fish around. they will stress out new fish and they could possibly die. Be sure when you buy fish. you dont buy them with any diseases just know what to look for. Ich's common visual ID is white snowflake looking spots on the fish. Breathing and eating is another thing to look for.

Anyways its hard to never loose a fish cause u never know what you get till you get it. Alot of treatment can also stress out and kill fish. dipping new fish can kill them just through stress.

 

[ericauch]

6 weeks on the qt. anyways

 

[scuzy]

I do a 3 week prazipro and cupramine treatment on my fish. After 3 weeks i would then throw in some carbon and take out all the prazipro and copper. Do a large water change and prep the guys to enter the display tank.

 

[Angel*Fish]

I started out with four green chromis and four blue chromis. They have slowly been dropping off one by one. I have one blue chromis left and two green ones. They were the first fish I purchased for this project.

This is pretty normal for Chromis. They bully the smallest until it dies of disease. You either wind up with a mated pair or a single fish.

 

[mrwilson]

I think that it certainly makes sense to remove all the fish currently in your display (or anywhere else in your system, like the sump, if there are any there), and leave it fallow for 8 weeks or so, just to be sure (or as sure as one can reasonably be) that your display is disease-free. (And then, in the established QT system, treat those fish with a round of cupramine, and perhaps a round of prazi as well.)

But it sounds to me like for at least some of the fish, you've started out with the "swimming dead" - fish that were on their way out no matter how good your care of them was. I am a firm believer that starting out with healthy, well-conditioned fish is a huge first step in having success. So EC, tell us a little more about the source for your fish. One thing that may make sense for you is to purchase all future additions from someplace like the Diver's Den (although still not neglecting to QT, etc.).

 

[treylane]

First, check your QT - if you're losing excessive numbers of fish there, or shortly after leaving it, your problem may be there. Your QT should be an established, healthy, stable tank with filtration, regular day/night cycles, and hiding places.

How stable is your DT? What types of corals? Are they thriving? Generally speaking, if the corals are happy the fish have good odds as well. A healthy anthias suddenly becoming ill (unlilely to be harassed much by chromis and clowns) like that is often a sign of water quality problems. Time for a battery of tests, and likely a water change.

Be specific about what fish you've tried to keep and what happened to them. What's your feeding regimen like? What are your water parameters? As others have said, it's not uncommon for anthias to drop off early on, or for chromis to pick each other off. Choosing fish that will thrive and coexist takes as much research and time as choosing inverts.

 

[elegance coral]

Biggest question is, Is there any certain way the fish die? stress? Disease?

I'm honestly not sure. Some of them seem to develop excess slime before they die. Cloudy eyes, and pale looking skin. Maybe a bacterial infection????? Maybe a symptom of stress????? Some have died for no apparent reason. I know some, especially the wrasses, were killed by other fish.

 

[elegance coral]

This is pretty normal for Chromis. They bully the smallest until it dies of disease. You either wind up with a mated pair or a single fish.

I'm figuring out that this is pretty common with several species that are said to get along well. I had the same problem with bartlets. Everything I read, said they do best in groups. Then I came here and found that bartletts often don't get along with each other.

 

[elegance coral]

Thanks for all the help. You guys are great!

So EC, tell us a little more about the source for your fish.

I special order most of my fish directly from a wholesaler in California. I don't get to see them before purchase.

 

[elegance coral]

First, check your QT - if you're losing excessive numbers of fish there, or shortly after leaving it, your problem may be there. Your QT should be an established, healthy, stable tank with filtration, regular day/night cycles, and hiding places.

My QT probably isn't the ideal set up. It's part of a three tank system. A 40 breeder with a pair of maroons and two wrasses that were evicted from the display for bad behavior. The 40 drains into a 12" deep 29 gallon tank. This is the QT and has nothing in it but PVC pipe and fittings for hiding places. The 29 drains into a 33 long that houses an old clarkii and a small grouper. These fish have never shown signs of illness. Even when fish in the QT were dieing.

How stable is your DT? What types of corals? Are they thriving? Generally speaking, if the corals are happy the fish have good odds as well. A healthy anthias suddenly becoming ill (unlilely to be harassed much by chromis and clowns) like that is often a sign of water quality problems. Time for a battery of tests, and likely a water change.

This is the 120 right before I broke it down, about a month ago. Now these animals are in a 200dd. The 120 is now the sump. There are three large and one small host anemone. Gigantea, magnifica, and haddoni. Two large elegance corals. I also have SPS, LPS, and clams. All of them are doing great. Some I've had for years.

Be specific about what fish you've tried to keep and what happened to them.

This explains my experience with wrasses. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1995017&highlight=i+m+through+with+wrasses

I got three dispars. All dead within a week. IDK
Female lyretails abused to death by wrasses.
Three bartletts. Some aggression, but can't prove why they died.

your feeding regimen like?

I feed two or three times a day. Reef caviar, cyclops, mysis.

water parameters?

I knew someone was gonna ask me this.:hmm3: I don't really test for most stuff. I test calcium and alk every once in a while. A friend did test his new phosphate meter on my system a while back, and it couldn't detect any.

ot uncommon for anthias to drop off early on, or for chromis to pick each other off. Choosing fish that will thrive and coexist takes as much research and time as choosing inverts.

The inverts I got. Everything you read about fish seems to be misleading though. Most of the info I've found would lead you to believe that wrasses, anthias, and chromis play well together. The info seems to a overly optimistic.