Help? Red bugs...

[dreaminmel]

Spartan,

As a followup to your question about how they may have been introduced... the goniopora I purchased from the LFS was not in with acros or linked to sytems with acros so that is pretty well ruled out.

The reefer that I purchased the 3 frags from sent me a pm that they didn't come from him as he had redbugs many months ago, treated and hasn't seen them since.

So, I still don't know how they made it in. I'm still researching suggestions on a dip or quarantine treatment for new corals so that this will NEVER happen again. And in doing so I will be able to see dead/dying bugs during a treatment and will be able to say with determination who is selling frags w/ bugs.

Since some feel they are harmless it seems possible that some may not hesitate to trade frags with that belief in mind.

 

[dreaminmel]

For anyone who hasn't read it...

Eric Borneman's Suggested Treatment

Good reading... Even though he suggests removing the corals for treatment I am choosing to treat my whole tank as other than the beneficial pods and such (that can easily be replaced) I have nothing to lose. The one hermit that hitched into my tank is on his own as I'm sick of him killing my snails anyway.

 

[Kent E]

I would destroy all red bugs, period. I think they are a real problem. I have plenty of pods, you won't have to reseed the tank. interceptor kills crustations (I think) anyway its limited in what it kills.

 

[dreaminmel]

I thought pods were crustaceans of a sort...?

Either way, I have someone already willing to shake some chaeto for me for the safety of my mandarin and will be looking at online sources as well just in case.

I'm also considering just going ahead and moving my mandarin to my 10 gallon setup that has a brine shrimp breeder right it in for cultivation but haven't made a decision on that yet. The brine shrimp would continuously hatch out in that tank w/ the shells remaining in the breeder. I've already used it once w/out a fish in the tank and was able to raise the shrimp to almost adult size.

 

[Stephany]

I've read as much as the same in regards to the bugs not actually overcoming the acro enough to kill it. It is interesting that they will go for certain species over others first; I wonder if it has to do with tissue density, or porosity.

Great pictures Mel, sorry for this happening to you.

 

[Stephany]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7312421#post7312421 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by drbronx
Before you rush to treat, you should realize that the cure may be worse than the so called pest you are attempting to eliminate. Most tanks with sps contain redbugs. In most cases, no notable damage has been definitevely linked to them. People have formed spurious correlations when seeing RTN and then observing redbug and making the assumption that it was caused by the redbug. It wasn't long ago that bristleworms, copepods etc. were thought to be pests and now they are recognized as providing valuable contributions to the biodiversity of the tank. I have had redbugs in my tanks for over two years, ever since I began collecting sps's. They appear to be primarily attracted to only sevreral acropora species. I have yet to observe any damage resulting from their presence. I witness no difference in growth or coloration in the corals most heavily infested by them relative to the other corals. I have yet to find definitive research that shows they are parasitic in nature, i.e., that they draw nutrients from their host. Interceptor on the other hand may be quite dangerous to the tank fauna. Personally, I would not introduce it to the system. I have talked to a number of sps farmers around the area and country and virtually all report redbug with no apparent ill effects. Just my two cents but something to consider. Many will undoubtedly disagree.

dr bronx, I respect you for voicing your opinion, although it does seem to be an unpopular one at that.

I have only seen pictures of your tank, which is beautiful... and I've gained knowledge from some of your posts in the past.

I do urge you to notify people ahead of time before they actually receive frags from your tank.
I haven't ever gotten frags from you, but if I had; I would have hoped you would tell me or post ahead of time...
A small disclaimer stating that your system contains red bugs yet you have not witnessed any mal-effects would allow people to make their own informed decision.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7325633#post7325633 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Stephany
I do urge you to notify people ahead of time before they actually receive frags from your tank.
I haven't ever gotten frags from you, but if I had; I would have hoped you would tell me or post ahead of time...
A small disclaimer stating that your system contains red bugs yet you have not witnessed any mal-effects would allow people to make their own informed decision.

That seems fair- but what if a coral supplier isn't aware they have something that is potentially detrimental to corals living in their system?
Fortunately, I've never had these critters in my aquarium... or at least I don't think that I've ever had them.
It seems unfair to blame any one person for something that (ultimately) came from the same oceans that our corals were collected from.
Quarantine of all new livestock is the ultimate solution.

 

[dreaminmel]

In the history section of the Eric Borneman link I believe there is mention of different but similar red bugs. One kind being harmless and the other being these dreaded "Tegastes acroporanus" (sp?).

***"Abstract
The harpacticoid copepod Tegastes acroporanus, new species, is associated with the scleractinian coral Acropora florida (Dana) at Enewetak Atoll. Until now only one harpacticoid species, Tegastes georgei Marcus and Masry, 1970, from Stylophora and Pocillopora in the Gulf of Elat, has been known to be associated with hard corals. The two species of Tegastes from corals resemble each other in the form of leg 5 in the female, but differ in the nature of the setae of the exopod of leg 4 and in the degree of sexual dimorphism in the first antenna of the male.*** quoted from site.

If someone knows for sure that they have the parasitic kind and still spreads around frags, they would be fit for a hanging in my book as what we're trying to do here is keep fragile species alive not doom them. However, if someone like DrBronx has had "red bugs" for years with no ill effects then I say go right ahead and trade/sell frags but ethically the purchaser SHOULD still be made aware of the bugs just along with a statement of the particular kind being harmless in his tank. (otherwise the purchaser may see them after the fact and raise holy hell even though they may be harmless..)

I did not purchase my frags from DrBronx so I don't think Stephany was necessarily blaming him but maybe just expressing concern as he is one of few who actually admit to having red bugs or their innocent counterparts.

And Gary, I do agree with your thought that it is unfair to blame people who aren't aware of a harmful organism but I would not hesitate to blame the ones who actually are aware as I'm sure you would feel the same if you had these nasties in your tank. I'm knockin on wood for ya because I'm scared to death to start treatment tomorrow but also scared to death not to...

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

The only thing that scares me is moving again! :lol:

Good luck with treatment, mel- keep us informed how it goes.

 

[dreaminmel]

I hear that! We got lucky and found out the deal fell through between landlord and commercial store that wanted to build a store on the whole corner here so we're safe for at least one more year... Yahoo! Thing that sucks about that though is I can't upgrade to MH lighting in this house due to the... ahem... older style wiring.

 

[Stephany]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7329562#post7329562 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Gary Majchrzak
That seems fair- but what if a coral supplier isn't aware they have something that is potentially detrimental to corals living in their system?
Fortunately, I've never had these critters in my aquarium... or at least I don't think that I've ever had them.
It seems unfair to blame any one person for something that (ultimately) came from the same oceans that our corals were collected from.
Quarantine of all new livestock is the ultimate solution.

If they're not aware...? "Even if you've had one partner. You should get tested." ...heh, sorry. TV rots the brain.

Well, hmm... I'm sure every coral supplier has their own rules and beliefs about quarantining, dips, etc for coral. Personally I feel most secure getting frags from people that I know dip any and all new corals before placing in their tank.

I am aware that these bugs have been found to be present in aquaculture, as well as maricultured colonies, etc. and that ofcourse everything we own inside our fishtank has ties or roots to the wild.

My apologies to dr bronx if I came off the wrong way at all. I did have good intentions with my post.

 

[dreaminmel]

Added the first dose at 6:30 and am being so neurotic... I keep looking in the tank every half hour to see if the bugs are dying yet even though I know I'm not supposed to see that until a few more hours have passed...

I ended up splitting one tablet into thirds and grinding up each third. I was planning on dosing .15 mg but did .33 mg instead after much discussion with people who have done so without issue. The other two thirds are in separate ziplocs awaiting their turn.

So far 3 hours later everything looks and acts just the way it did before the medicine went in... I should know patience being in this hobby but am about to start chewing on my nails which I haven't done for 16 years now...

 

[dreaminmel]

Update: My 1 hitchhiking hermit just bit the dust... I swear I just heard all the snails shout hip, hip, hooray! My scarlet cleaner is still acting happy as can be and my bristleworms are starting to poke their heads out and "sniff" around.

 

[moriartiholmes]

Are there any natural predators of these "bugs"? Maybe a Six Line Wrasse for example?

 

[dreaminmel]

I have a six line and a mandarin, no on either one of those. I have heard speculation that a pipefish may do the trick but nothing concrete.

 

[dreaminmel]

5 hours into first treatment and not one red bug is visible anywhere. Scarlet cleaner shrimp is still kicking even though it looks a little drunk and some baby bristle worms are losing grip and being swept around the tank but the adults are still going strong.

Even though everything appears to be going as expected I'm still going to do the 2nd and possibly 3rd treatments so updates will still keep coming.

 

[RandyO]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7301911#post7301911 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dreaminmel


RandyO - How long ago did you treat your system?

Sorry,
I just revisited this thread.

I did my first treatment sometime in January. I tried to dose the exact amount needed. I was so nervous. Only a couple hermits died, which was good, considering I had 100 or so in my system. Mostly scarlet hermits. All the shrimp made it too.
Then in February, I purchased Dr. Sanjay's reef tank with all his corals, and many of the sps had red bugs. So my second treatment was a day after I introduced his corals to my system. And this time, since I wasn't so nervous, I dosed a little extra. I ended up loosing about 20 hermits, and an Acro crab that I was very attached to. It was living in a Stylophora I hand picked from Los Angeles in 2001. I was a little bummed about that, but my acro's have never looked better.

As far as the statements that red bugs do not kill Acros, that may be true. But they do put them in a very stressed state that all it takes is one false move, and you've lost the colony. They don't have the energy to heal or deal with stress.
I blame red bugs for the loss of numerous Acro colonies over the past few years. I had beautiful, growing colonies of A.suharsonoi that were red bug free. Once the red bugs found these colonies, they got very pale, stopped growing, stopped expanding their polyps, and eventually started to RTN. Certain species of Acropora were not bothered by them in my tank. But the longer corallite acros, including many deepwater acros were fatally affected. Many of the non-fuzzy type of acropora were also affected. But I never saw any bugs on my A.efflorescens.

I'd say your better off without them. I can see a difference. The one deepwater Acro that I've had since 2003, and the only one that has survived, is now starting to grow.

This was back in Feb, 2004 when it just started getting bugs. You can see a couple bugs if you look close.
Acropora elegans

It turned pale brown and stopped growing after it got the bugs on it.

 

[dreaminmel]

So I did a water change after work today meaning I left the treatment in for 24 hours. The weak crab and my cleaner shrimp are the only casualties from the 1st treatment. I still have some good pods but cannot find one single red bug anywhere.

Seeings how Murphy and his stupid law like to torment me so much I will still be doing the 2nd and 3rd treatments just to be safe. 2nd treatment will take place next Tuesday, 7 days after 1st.

I actually got ambitious and took a razor blade to the coralline today after the water change.

My next project after all this will be waging war on my silicate issue. That's gonna be a tough one though because I've found a lot of media designed for silicate removal contain copper. :eek1: If I can't find one that doesn't I may just deal with the silicates... After a few more water changes they may go away anyways as they normally don't make it into my tank through the deionization but when I had a cuke die in a powerhead a little while back I used treated tap for a quick 50% water change so voila, now I have a silicate issue.

At any rate, I'll try to post some pics somewhere in this thread once treatments are all done as I don't think I've shown anyone my new aquascaping yet anyways.

 

[drbronx]

Stephany: Your point is well taken. I will inform people when I sell frags. It may well be that there are different species of redbugs, some of which are more detrimental than others. I personaly assume that redbugs invariably exist in sps dominated aquaria. Perhaps I could obtain interceptor and add afew drops into each bag when I sell frags though I don't know how long it takes to work. Fortunately, they have only a few acropora species in my tank that they like to inhabit. I have never seen them on any montiporas, nor on any acro milles, torts, slimers, tenuis, pocilloporas, etc. In fact the only corals I see them on (and they are actually quite easy to spot despite their diminutive size) is a Larry jackson Acro, a green humilis, blue slimer, and one or two others. Very curious. I wonder what determines their taste preference. I am also considering the purchase of pipefish for my new 125. Mostly because I think they are fascinating, and I have read that they can consume redbug. However, they are often difficult to maintain since they prefer live critters. My tank is loaded with copepods etc so they should thrive. Not to highjack this fascinating thread, but I would love to hear from anyone with pipefish experience, successful or otherwise.

 

[dreaminmel]

drbronx, I just noticed there's an article about the pipefish in this month's online Reefkeeping Magazine. I've seen them in a few tanks but don't have any real experience with them unfortunately. I don't think they'd like my tang, sixline or chromis very much as the article states they don't like aggressive feeders or curious fish. I did find it interesting that they have an exoskeleton dependant on calcium levels...