Help with ick

[SLOW1]

I will first point out that I have done quite a but if research on this forum on ick. Im to a point where i need some help.

I am new to saltwater but have had cichlids most of my life.

My tank has been up for 3 months fish in it about half of that time, i was very carful acclimating my fish but had not been doing and QT. Ill be QTing my fish from now on!

I added a fish, an occ clown to my tank and i think he is the one that brought the ick in. A few days later my rabbit fish, hippo tang and of course the clow all showing signs of ick. All the other fish had been in there for several weeks and were doing fine.

I tried reef safe ich meds and add garlic to my food already. No luck, a few days later I lost the Clown. I was trying to let them get over it on their own. This goes on for a couple days, hippo gets a lot worse but still eating. I decide to get everyone out and treat with copper and hypo in my hospital tank.

Using filter floss that i had in my sump for nitrification and daily water changes to keep the ammonia nitrites and nitrates in check.

My fish have been in the QT tank for about 5 days, all were doing well and showing signs of improvement.

I wake up this morning to find my hippo tang dead.

What else can i do? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Water parameters.

20 gal hospital tank
Temp 78 same as DT
Ammonia undetectable to .1 on an elos test kit.
Nitrite 0
Nitrate undetectable.

Fish
One small rabbit
two green chromis
one flame hawk
one pigmy angle
The flame, pigmy and chromis have shown zero signs of ick.

lost one occ clown, one chromis and now my hippo tang. I feel really bad for them.

Any help saving my remaining fish would be great.

 

[francis1123]

that is a pretty big load for a 20g non filtered tank. i would suspect that your ammonia test may not be accurrate, and/or you do not have enough airation and the fish are suffocating.
copper and hypo will kill the beneficial bacteria in the filter floss, and add to any ammonia issues in the system. you are best just running the filter empty for water movement, and even an air pump for extra oxygen.
with that many fish i would also recommend upping to a 40g.

 

[Kieth71]

I may be wrong but i think copper and hypo mixed makes the copper toxic which may have killed your fish.I do not know which copper you are useing but some coppers such as cupramine will make it so some ammonia tests do not work properly.Get yourself a seachem ammonia badge as it makes it very easy to keep an eye on it.

 

[SLOW1]

Thanks for the input.

I realized its a large bioload, hence the 25% water changes daily.

I already had the 20, I never intended to use it for this many fish, just for one fish at a time.

I have a small powerhead and an air pump for them.

I have used two different ammonia tests, one was API. Its hard to read so i got an elos ammonia test kit that is brand new. I have seen the ammonia at .1 prior to a water change but I think that was because I went two days with out a water change.

I would love to have a larger tank to do all this in but it starts to cost a lot more $$ for a tank that just sits around most of the time.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Using filter floss that i had in my sump for nitrification and daily water changes to keep the ammonia nitrites and nitrates in check.

Filter floss in DT cannot in general handle the bioload. Just think about it. In the long run (after months) the nitrification capacity of a tank is in balance with the bioload. The floss in a DT is only a part of the nitrification capacity. Unless the bioload you put in QT is close to the balance, it won't do.

What you need to (have done) is to cycle specifically for the QT.

If there are still survivors this time, you may want to cycle (using the seed and waste method) in a separate container now.

If you lose all your fish this time, you may cycle the filter medium in the QT.

The key to thorough and effective QT against ich (eradication of the last ich organism) is ample nitrification in QT and patience. At least eight weeks of active treatment against ich, not observation.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Thanks for the input.

I realized its a large bioload, hence the 25% water changes daily.

In general, if you don't have any nitrification, more water change may be needed. 25 % less ammonia may not mean much.

You should consider ammonia generated by decay of fish poop and uneaten food. The rate of generation of ammonia by such decay is not linear with time.

You must carefully remove nearly all poops and uneaten food in QT if you do not have enough nitrification. A lot of work. That is why having cycled the medium for QT very well in advance is very important.

 

[francis1123]

there is no way to cycle a hospital tank, which is what this is since he's using meds. you can not have any filtration on it. bio filters will die, chemical/mechanical will pull out the meds.
Keith is correct that copper can throw off ammonia tests.
25% daily change is what i recommend for a lightly stocked hospital tank. i would recommend doing 50%+ on yours due to it's size, and fish load. i use a maxijet and a hose to suck up all the food/fish waste on the bottom of the tank. this will help a lot with ammonia build up.
good luck with the survivors. i hope you can get them all to pull through.

 

[SLOW1]

I am making sure to get all uneated food and stuff off the bottom and out of the filter.

All of the fish are also very small, less than 1.5 inches except for the rabbit about 2.5in.
I have been making an efford to get everything off the bottom from of the tank from day one.

I will try some larger water changes as well.

I am going to get these fish through this... i hope.

All that is currently in the tank are 5 small fish.
One small pigmy angle about 1.5 inches
one small chromis, about 1 inch
one small flame hawk, a little more than 1.5 in
and one small rabbit fish maybe a little more than 2 inches.


Do you think i can get these fish through this?
what other filter options would yall recommend.

I was also told by my LFS that the elos test kit kit would be accurate with copper in the water, was i misinformed?

 

[SLOW1]

there is no way to cycle a hospital tank, which is what this is since he's using meds. you can not have any filtration on it. bio filters will die, chemical/mechanical will pull out the meds.
Keith is correct that copper can throw off ammonia tests.
25% daily change is what i recommend for a lightly stocked hospital tank. i would recommend doing 50%+ on yours due to it's size, and fish load. i use a maxijet and a hose to suck up all the food/fish waste on the bottom of the tank. this will help a lot with ammonia build up.
good luck with the survivors. i hope you can get them all to pull through.

Thanks, this is kind of what i thought.

Was i better off letting them fight it off on the DT? I lost the first two to ick while in the DT before i moved them over. The tang is the only one to go since i put them in the hospital tank.

 

[wooden_reefer]

there is no way to cycle a hospital tank

You do not need to cycle a tank, ever, you cycle the medium in a separate container to be transferred to a tank .

It takes time. Wet-dry seed and waste method takes only three weeks.

copper does not have significant impact on nitrification bacteria.

 

[RBU1]

there is no way to cycle a hospital tank, which is what this is since he's using meds. you can not have any filtration on it. bio filters will die, chemical/mechanical will pull out the meds.
Keith is correct that copper can throw off ammonia tests.
25% daily change is what i recommend for a lightly stocked hospital tank. i would recommend doing 50%+ on yours due to it's size, and fish load. i use a maxijet and a hose to suck up all the food/fish waste on the bottom of the tank. this will help a lot with ammonia build up.
good luck with the survivors. i hope you can get them all to pull through.

Not sure what you are saying is true. Filters do work just reduced...You can have filtration on it just not a skimmer, uv or carbon. I am running a w/d filter and a hang on filter with bio wheels on my 125 treatment tank. I just think using meds reduces the effectiveness of the biological filter but it still works. The addition of bacteria based products also helps.

 

[RBU1]

You do not need to cycle a tank, ever, you cycle the medium in a separate container to be transferred to a tank .

It takes time. Wet-dry seed and waste method takes only three weeks.

copper does not have significant impact on nitrification bacteria.

I sent you a pm would like some more information. The use of paraguard in my tank has greatly reduced the effectiveness of my biological filtration to the point I was getting both an amonnia and nitrite reading. I added some more of my liquid bacteria and it appears that is starting to work. Can you elaborate more for us on how to keep the bacteria thriving under less then perfect conditions...Thanks

 

[wooden_reefer]

deleted

 

[wooden_reefer]

The use of paraguard in my tank has greatly reduced the effectiveness of my biological filtration to the point I was getting both an amonnia and nitrite reading. I added some more of my liquid bacteria and it appears that is starting to work. Can you elaborate more for us on how to keep the bacteria thriving under less then perfect conditions...Thanks

What are the ingredients in paraguard?

I have never had any problem on nitrification due to copper. Also, copper resistant strains will develop, according to Mardel, maker of CopperSafe

The drugs most likely to affect nitrification bacteria are certain antibiotics.
Kanamycin, neomycin and erythromycin will only depress nitrification bacteria but will not wipe them out. You will detect some nitrite but little ammonia. Chloromycetin will wipeout nitrification bacteria.

One method is to overcompensate. If you use the seed and waste method to produce a medium that can process 2 ppm ammonia in a day, if your bioload only produces 0.5 ppm a day, you will have a cushion of 4 times. Even a 20% reduction will not affect you. You can always produce a very robustly active medium in a separate container in advance.

May be another method is to produce selective strains. Use an antibotics while cycling. I have not tried this but have meant to for a long time. May be you can do an experiement.

Method one often works.

 

[RBU1]

What are the ingredients in paraguard?

I have never had any problem on nitrification due to copper. Also, copper resistant strains will develop, according to Mardel, maker of CopperSafe

The drugs most likely to affect nitrification bacteria are certain antibiotics.
Kanamycin, neomycin and erythromycin will only depress nitrification bacteria but will not wipe them out. You will detect some nitrite but little ammonia. Chloromycetin will wipeout nitrification bacteria.

One method is to overcompensate. If you use the seed and waste method to produce a medium that can process 2 ppm ammonia in a day, if your bioload only produces 0.5 ppm a day, you will have a cushion of 4 times. Even a 20% reduction will not affect you. You can always produce a very robustly active medium in a separate container in advance.

May be another method is to produce selective strains. Use an antibotics while cycling. I have not tried this but have meant to for a long time. May be you can do an experiement.

Method one often works.

You keep mentioning this seed and waste method but I don't understand it. Can you please explain how to do this? PLEASE put it in easy terms to understand.

Thank you.

 

[wooden_reefer]

You keep mentioning this seed and waste method but I don't understand it. Can you please explain how to do this? PLEASE put it in easy terms to understand.

Thank you.

I hope you can connect the dots by a few points.

1. Seed is bacteria seed

2. Waste is a source of ammonia. Pulses of about 5 ppm on days 1, 15, and 25 of cycle. Emulsified shrimp (stinks a little) or inorganic ammonium salt, such as odorless ammonium chloride. 15 grams of moists shrimp will result in 5 ppm N ammonia in 20 gals of water.

3. You cycle using a medium in a separate container to not include any livestock, if necessary. Circulation and gaseous exchange as usual. Water dripping on medium is the best; submerged medium will also work. The medium can be very simple like polyester floss. For the best lasting use of a medium, I like crushed oyster shell or crushed coral warpped in tightly stretched nylon panty hose. These will form balls the size of large oranges that you can stack up. It is best that you drip cycling water over them or totally submerge them with less efficiency.

4. At the conclusion of the cycle, you will observe that it processes a lot of ammonia per unit weight or volume of medium.

5. Nitrification bacteria do not die quickly from starvation. Even up to about a month without ammonia and nitrite most live. Nearly all the bacteria are stuck onto the substrate of the medium; you can even rinse it with water of the destination tank (not tap water) before putting it into the tank. You may drip QT water over it as a filter medium.

 

[RBU1]

OK well I still really do not understand....So let me ask you this.

If you had a 125 treatment tank set up that has been running for 3 months with fish in it how would you make sure the bacteria level is high enough or how would you make it higher? I have been using paraguard and Seachem states any medication treatment can weaken the nitrification bacteria. So now I am getting an amonnia and nitrite reading on the tank. I just did a 25 gallon water change and have been adding nitomax marine bacteria. I have a W/D filter with bioballs and an emperor 400 hang on back filter with the bio wheels.

Paraguard contain malachite green and aldehydes.

 

[krowleey]

you did hypo WITH copper. that is where you went wrong. you can not do them both it makes the copper very toxic. do one or the other and you will have more positive results.

 

[SLOW1]

you did hypo WITH copper. that is where you went wrong. you can not do them both it makes the copper very toxic. do one or the other and you will have more positive results.

Thanks for the advice,

Im glad i stopped taking my salinity down. I had only one one water change with the low salinity. QT system salinity is currently at 1.022.

 

[SLOW1]

I am thinking of putting my fish back in my DT for a couple weeks. The tang and clown i lost were the only two showing bad signs of ick. In the mean time this will give my QT more time to build up some stronger nitrifying abilities.

good or bad idea??

Thanks