Help with Plumbing

OzarksReef

Member
I could use some input on the plumbing setup on 120-gallon (I recently bought this used from "Deadeye" here in Springfield). I'm looking for input on the setup as it's currently configured as well as some thoughts on installing a closed loop circulation system. If you get a chance, please take a look at my post here and let me know what you think.

Thanks in advance!
David
 
I would poke 2 more holes in it for the CL (In the main tank area, not the overflow). Plumb the two new holes together and install strainers inside the tank. (This will be the infeed to your CL pump). The reason for 2 intakes teed together would be so you dont cause a fish killer suction with the CL. It will split the difference. Then go up and over the top with the return from the CL pump. Everything else looks good. I would run a sequence dart for the CL pump, and size your holes accordingly.. This is how I am going to do mine in the 125g... Good luck with the new tank!

Jason
 
Thanks Jason - I hate to drill two more holes in the tank (yikes - my luck it would crack!). Another guy suggested going over the back of the tank for the returns and doing a closed loop using the existing 1.5" bulkheads ... what do you think of that suggestion?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10642931#post10642931 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OzarksReef
Thanks Jason - I hate to drill two more holes in the tank (yikes - my luck it would crack!). Another guy suggested going over the back of the tank for the returns and doing a closed loop using the existing 1.5" bulkheads ... what do you think of that suggestion?

If you do that, what will you use as a drain to your sump? And also, are the 1.5" bulkheads in the overflow box? If so, you could chance running the pump dry... Two more holes wont be a big deal... Troy may even do it for you if you throw a couple bucks his way...

Jason
 
I would drill 6 holes, 2 1 1/2" for intakes and 4 1" for outlets. I have 18 holes drilled in my 180. Too many people don't have enough flow inside the tank, it should have at least 15 times an hour turn over. Also, that tank is a 125 because it's 6', not 120 a 120 is a 5' tank. The overflow setup is the way it should be and you don't need to make any adjustments. I helped Matt build that, but Patrick didn't want to do the closed loop at that time because it could always be added later. Feel free to come out and look at my set up if you wish. Good luck.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the responses. Aquaconnect - I would sure appreciate any advice you could offer on this setup. Patrick mentioned that he had help in putting it together - I'm sure glad you picked up on this thread! I mentioned earlier that I have a Mag 9.5 as the return pump, and I've just not been happy with the flow. A closed loop seems like the way to go with this. Where would you suggest drilling the holes - and is there anyone in the area that makes "house calls?" My tank is setup and stocked!

David
 
The only problem you'd run into is having to drain the tank to redrill it. As far as the mag drive, if you're using it for a return pump, it's more than enough and has good head pressure. Although noise and heat monsters, they are pretty good. Contrary to what most people believe, you don't really want to blast a sump with lots of turn over so that you skimmer and other filtration has enough time to be efficent, especially if you have a refugium or use any chemical filtration. Some people try to get more flow in the tank by just using a strong return pump (and try to get away w/powerheads to do the rest), which in turn makes a skimmer less efficent because there isn't as much contact time in the sump, and a noisy overflow that you have to worry about catching up with, but in your case wouldn't be a problem. This is of coarse true for other reactors like calcium and phosban reactors as well. Some people may disagree with this and think that everything will eventually equalize, but through my experiments/trials w/my tanks, I've found that the more contact time in the sump the better. Also, think about the ocean. Reefs have super fast currents in them, although they don't look like that on TV, if you ever dive, you would be surprized. Also, using powerheads only localizes the flow and doesn't create too much of a natural wave action which you can achieve w/various other equiment that usually clogs or fails altogether, plus you're not putting as much heat in the water if you use an external pump. By the time you buy 4 or 5 good power heads your halfway to buying a good external pump that'd be more efficent in a closed loop setup anyway. I have no brown, green, or red algae of any kind in my tank. From what I have experienced, the higher flow keeps bad stuff from settling in your tank on the bottom and behind the rocks, and instead goes through the water colum where it is skimmer out totally, which is also a hugh benefit when reefing. 9 out of 10 tanks that have great water quality, but big algae problems, are because they don't have enough flow to keep things from settling and spreading thoughout the rockwork. Just my 2 cents.
 
You've definitely sold me on it - just concerned about drilling the tank - both from the standpoint of taking my display down (where would I put everything?) and the fear of cracking it while drilling. Hmmm ... lots to consider on this! I would like to take you up on the offer of seeing your setup sometime. I think it would help me get a better feel for how it all works. Again - thanks for all your help!

David
 
Just as a matter of interest and information. There is a growing trend in using more powerful return pumps to increase flow.

I've read a few posts by some good RC sources (Steve Pro) that noted a growing trend of higher turnover rates through sumps using larger than “standard” return pumps.

Due to more efficient and powerful pumps on the market combined with the use of efficient protein skimmers, higher rates of turnover are being utilized. Because skimmers are being designed with greater contact time between SW and air occurring within the skimmer itself, the need for slower rates of flow in the sump to increase contact time is reduced. This is also validated by the trend of some protein skimmers suggesting direct connect to a tanks overflow and then its discharge going to the sump. Slow flow through the sump in that type of setup would not benefit the display at all.

Now, I am not saying go out and buy the biggest pump you can lay your hands on and hook it up. Personally I think it is bigger systems that can allow larger protein skimmers to be utilized that benefit from this setup. However if your system has an efficient protein skimmer, increased flow resulting from a larger return pump and higher turnover rates through the sump, may be beneficial.

Just FYI…
 
Oh...as always increasing flow utilizing power heads (Tunz pumps or modded Maxijets) or other devices within the tank is always a good move. Direct linear flow is not the best (unmodded powerheads) but they can be utilized if banked of the glass and such.

I'm a big proponent of FLOW!
 
Well, I'm just saying that this is my own personal experience that I have done and been through myself with my own reef, not something I've read. I think it's better to run a closed loop to get the flow, not the sump. You don't have to worry about things clogging/failing, catching air, or sucking a fish down in them, lol, where as a closed loop is just that, a loop that's closed and by itself. No need to worry about it failing, or your "powerful" return pump flooding your house while your gone because the overflow had a glitch happen because of too much flow....oh wait though, those never happen in reefs, right? LOL

It's all up to how you want to do it. Some say no skimmer at all, heck what do I know....good luck!
 
Last edited:
I'd have to agree with Dave. To get that much flow a closed loop is the best way to go. If your not to keen on drilling your tank than i would suggest power heads(koralias are the best). But than you have to consider the extra heat exchange and of course the not so appealing look of power heads. In my opinion(and experience)i would not recommend trying to force that kind of flow through a sump with or without a refugium. Your kind of defeating the whole purpose of having one. Not to mention some extremely noisy overflows. A closed loop draws its water directly from the tank and returns it the same way thus the noise factor is minimal. There is no way you are going to get 15,20,or 30 times turnover(sps tank) by running it through a sump (maybe if you drill 8-10 1" drains) and still want to be in the same room with the tank (extremely noisy). This is just from my own experience. Alot of trial and error, over the last 15 years. Good luck!
 
Oh...I see, so what your saying is, research and reading are not valid sources for new information.

Now, if you read my post as it was intended (FYI, on a new take on the Berlin system), you may have done some research on your own as to what merits there may be to setting up a system in such a way. I was providing a different view that is being discussed on RC. If you don't do any research and rely only on your own experiences as "proof" of what works, then to each their own. Thank God physicians go to school before practicing medicine. I assume it is just a coincidence that your overflow is a Calfo…guess you just came up with that on your own!

I apologize if anyone takes my comments personally but just because you don’t do it doesn’t make it wrong. People who always jump on others as self proclaimed “authorities” and flame anyone who remarks on anything different are a big reason people with really great experience and knowledge do not post (excluding myself, I don’t claim to be a “know all” of anything). Right or wrong that is how new approaches to this wonderful hobby get developed; I think they call it “thinking out of the box”. Not too long ago live rock was a bad idea (die off lead to high Nitrates) and a Skilter Filter was one of the few protein skimmers available, and you couldn’t keep live corals. If people didn’t try or research new approaches then we would still be in caves.

As a matter of "experience" for the "I know more than (insert name here)" types, I currently run a set up with a high throughput through the sump with a protein skimmer (PS) rated 2x my system size (heavy load) and it runs great. I also have a CL running on the same system. The biggest pro for my setup is that only two inputs are viewed in the display tank. No pumps hanging everywhere. Due to the high rate of flow throughout the entire system the PS is exposed to the entire system’s Dissolved organics more efficiently. A key component is an oversized PS. Time will tell if it is more effective than current ways of setting up a Berlin system, personally my experience is that it is. I’m basing my interpretation on what was being pulled out of my system via the PS with a lower GPH rating and then with a higher GPH rating. After adding my new skimmer it pulls even more than the other did, but it is a different skimmer and can’t be used as a measurement of success.

Here is something to think about. Why would you want the sump to be the cleanest water in your system? The most efficient exposure a PS can have is to be hooked directly the display tank. If undersized it may not pull enough dissolved organics for tank health. Ok so you move it to the sump it pulls more organics from the sump, great cleaner water. So you pull dirtier water from the display and cycle it through the sump at a slow rate so the PS can have enough contact time to pull the organics out before returning the cleaner water to the display.

AGAIN…the key point of interest is a completely overkill PS combined with a high turnover rate which results in exposure of the overrated skimmer to the entire system volume.

The reason for bringing this up is that this can be another way to increase flow in a tank if set up properly. CLs are great (I have one), Tunze pumps are awesome (I have one).

Oh and BTW it does not matter how big a pump you’re running if your overflow malfunctions...it will just take a little longer for it to empty. A properly designed system with safe guards (like water detectors that cut off power to the system pump) will protect any system from overflow problems. In simple terms…that statement is a non issue!

Don’t bother trying to shoot a smug little reply…I won’t care.
 
Um.. I think you're the one who took it personal, did I ever say anything bad about what you mention? I think you need to analyze that! I was just stating what I used, can I not do that? I was just stating that the only experience I had was what was mentioned above, and that you're input was nice to have another view on, so uh, you need read more closely I guess and not be so defensive about things. Never said Calfo didn't have a good idea, otherwise I wouldn't have used it. There was never anything intended, I was just stating what I've done personally, and what's worked for me, and NEVER said I was an expert. So why is that implied by you? Are you the type you mentioned above who 'claim to know everything' and not take others opinions and/or research into account? Don't be a hypocrite. Is that why you are offended? That was not my intention, just stating what worked for me, just like you did without picking a senseless RC typing battle about who knows more, Dave or Shaun.... who will get voted off the reef...

It's so amazing how personal people take things that were never intended, I never belittled your research or yourself, just giving my 2 cents. Just come out and say whatever you want to me, I could care less because I'm not starting anything anyway. But thanks for the new signature idea!
 
Last edited:
PS, I do take the Calfo remark personally directed toward me (although nothing was ever personally directed towards you), so grow up and don't put "I apologize if anyone takes my comments personally" when they are out right directed at someone, along with some other jabs in there, which would be me. LOL, what a crock and what's the problem;) Can you explain to me your intentions and use of language if they were not directed at me, or am I now taking defense for no apparent reason, like you have?
 
Last edited:
..... Time to step back and take a deeeeep breath... Lets make this the end of this... The arguing is not helping Ozarksreef with his plumbing. It is fine to post ideas, knowledge, or research.. but please don't belittle others in the process. I'm sure Ozarksreef will review the non belittling posts, and make a decision on what will work best in HIS application. His thread was not intended to be a battle ground, and I would appreciate it if it was left as idea suggestions only.... not who's right, who's wrong. Theres more than one way to accomplish a goal in our hobby,.... but arguing over something like this helps nobody... Thanks

BTW, Quintab! You posted!???? TWICE now! :) lol..

Jason Sanders
SEAS President
 
Back
Top