Help with SPS color

[kc350twin]

kissman

I wont be able to add much but will say I am pulling for you. I too have been in this situation and I am kind of still. Last year I went the Bio-pellet and Zeovit route. Dosed a whole bunch of their products and seemed like I had just gone too far with it. All my corals lot their colors and kept growing at a slow rate. P04 was way low and my glass wouldn't need to be cleaned for days or a week and what I was cleaning was the white-ish bio-film and not algae.
I recently transferred most of the corals to a larger new tank and added a few others and I swear the very pale sps will not color back up. I have added new sps that are fine but most of the older ones all have polyp and growth but will not return to the coloring they once had. I have a theory that I have damaged them in some way and they wont return. I am buying some frags soon from the same reefer that I had grown and I will see if they maintain their colors.

 

[rsaha]

Glad to see things are trending upwards! I have lived through a similar (but more dramatic) decline in my ability to keep SPS happy. I too had a tank with a mix of SPS, LPS and too much pom pom xenia. In my case it was different. I had brilliant coloration of a few pieces (yellow in particular continued to remain vibrant) but steady decline and STN from the base on others. I used to prune the xenia pretty aggressively and bad things would happen after that - even with carbon. Phosphates and nitrates always measured zero. Got a bit sick of people telling me I must have a dirty tank because xenia love dirty water with a fish load of 2 clowns, a tailspot and a royal gramma in a 120. I have a good skimmer and do 10 percent water changes weekly. The sand bed wasn't the most pristine - 7 year old tank.

I have recently embarked on a rebuild of my tank in an attempt to eradicate all xenia. I don't know if xenia have anything to do with your problems but piping up to say I don't think your theory about the xenia consuming all nutrients is necessarily crazy.



Good luck!

 

[kissman]

I am a big fan of Red Sea products and been using them for years. I have contacted Kevin with Red Sea and asked him to read through the thread and give his opionion, thoughts, suggestions etc.. in this thread on the situation with my corals.

 

[RedSeaKev]

I am a big fan of Red Sea products and been using them for years. I have contacted Kevin with Red Sea and asked him to read through the thread and give his opionion, thoughts, suggestions etc.. in this thread on the situation with my corals.

Hi Kissman, thanks for the invite, I have to say folks this is a great thread and there are many things here that I would like to think I can help.

Please, I am going to relate to a lot of things Red Sea so before we start my apologies.

We have seen a lot of the issues you folks are referring to in this thread, and yes loss or lack of colors being one of them.

There is as I am sure you know a very close relationship between many elements in any Reef Aquarium, this includes what we call Foundation Elements, of Alkalinity, Calcium and Magnesium, these alone with major and minor trace elements ( We call these Coral colors) make up the skeleton of or hard Corals especially SPS, we then have this skeleton covered with the tissue that covers the skeleton, where does the color come into this I hear you ask, and this is where things get interesting.

It is the density of the Symbiotic Zooxanthellae Algae living in the tissue that gives the coral its color.

Ok, where does this information come from, Red Sea scientists spent 5 years developing our new Reef Care Program and it was during this research using cell biology of corals we were able to determine their exact physiological and nutritional requirements.


Quite a few folks have hit exactly on what I believe is Kissman's issue here and it stems from No Nitrate, you only have to look at the many reports all over the internet on Nitrate levels in seawater, they are nearly always at trace or low levels never Nil.

We spent a lot of time and effort developing our No3Po4-X to do exactly this, being able to control Algae Nutrient levels at low nutrient levels of 0.25ppm No3 and 0.02 Po4 and for those wishing to rapidly grow there SPS by increasing the Foundation level and increasing Algae Nutrient levels to 1 to 2 ppm No3 and 0.08ppm Po4.

Now I don't want to turn this thread into Ask Red Sea etc but I'm always happy to try and answer any questions you may have on the Reef Care Range so feel free to visit http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=573 or PM me, work load in Europe sometimes will mean my response might be slow but I'll my best.

RedSeaKev :beer:

 

[kissman]

Hi Kissman, thanks for the invite, I have to say folks this is a great thread and there are many things here that I would like to think I can help.

Please, I am going to relate to a lot of things Red Sea so before we start my apologies.

We have seen a lot of the issues you folks are referring to in this thread, and yes loss or lack of colors being one of them.

There is as I am sure you know a very close relationship between many elements in any Reef Aquarium, this includes what we call Foundation Elements, of Alkalinity, Calcium and Magnesium, these alone with major and minor trace elements ( We call these Coral colors) make up the skeleton of or hard Corals especially SPS, we then have this skeleton covered with the tissue that covers the skeleton, where does the color come into this I hear you ask, and this is where things get interesting.

It is the density of the Symbiotic Zooxanthellae Algae living in the tissue that gives the coral its color.

Ok, where does this information come from, Red Sea scientists spent 5 years developing our new Reef Care Program and it was during this research using cell biology of corals we were able to determine their exact physiological and nutritional requirements.


Quite a few folks have hit exactly on what I believe is Kissman's issue here and it stems from No Nitrate, you only have to look at the many reports all over the internet on Nitrate levels in seawater, they are nearly always at trace or low levels never Nil.

We spent a lot of time and effort developing our No3Po4-X to do exactly this, being able to control Algae Nutrient levels at low nutrient levels of 0.25ppm No3 and 0.02 Po4 and for those wishing to rapidly grow there SPS by increasing the Foundation level and increasing Algae Nutrient levels to 1 to 2 ppm No3 and 0.08ppm Po4.

Now I don't want to turn this thread into Ask Red Sea etc but I'm always happy to try and answer any questions you may have on the Reef Care Range so feel free to visit http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=573 or PM me, work load in Europe sometimes will mean my response might be slow but I'll my best.

RedSeaKev :beer:

Hey Kev thanks for joining in, so you seem to be in agreament with several people here. Its lack of Zoox. I have been feeding heavier and adding 4mL of Red Sea to increase zoox. I will double the amount to 8mL of each as you suggested aswell.


Anybody know in what ways that I can raise Zoox. I know raising NO3 will help just wondering what else?

 

[kissman]

well got home tonight to 1 dead coral. I think another is close behind. was green last night

 

[redwingrob40]

well got home tonight to 1 dead coral. I think another is close behind. was green last night

Whoa, that's no good. What are you thinking may have caused it? The rise in NO3 and PO4?

 

[RedSeaKev]

Hey Kev thanks for joining in, so you seem to be in agreament with several people here. Its lack of Zoox. I have been feeding heavier and adding 4mL of Red Sea to increase zoox. I will double the amount to 8mL of each as you suggested aswell.


Anybody know in what ways that I can raise Zoox. I know raising NO3 will help just wondering what else?

Hi Kissman, you are welcome Sir, yes, most definitely the comments made by those suggesting your Corals are starving in my opinion are absolutely spot on.

what is very very important now is you get some Nitrate back into the system, now how you go about this gives you a few choices, you can dramatically reduce the amount of macro algae you have, increase the frequency of feeding and feed heavier or you could even start dosing some form of Nitrate in the form of Potassium or Sodium, we have issues getting these kind of materials in the UK but I'm sure you can get them State side.

I thinks its better to see a little browning of Corals due to excess No3 than dead corals due to the lack of No3 until you can stabilise your system again.

In the mean time I would also maintain a higher dose of Reef Energy, any Corals that look as if they are struggling I would turn your flow pumps of for the same time as you skimmer and target feed your Corals with Energy, make a kind of cloud around them, this will ensure they are fed and help with there recovery.

 

[kissman]

Whoa, that's no good. What are you thinking may have caused it? The rise in NO3 and PO4?

No, there was not enough rise in them to kill coral. If anything the rise would have helped. This coral has never really done great since I got it. Never did bad either really, just never grew. About a year agon I was missing this coral and found upside down in the sand. Thought it was dead then, but it came back. This time I am not sure what happened to it. But, I don't think it will come back, I am going to leave it in the tank and see.

Hi Kissman, you are welcome Sir, yes, most definitely the comments made by those suggesting your Corals are starving in my opinion are absolutely spot on.

what is very very important now is you get some Nitrate back into the system, now how you go about this gives you a few choices, you can dramatically reduce the amount of macro algae you have, increase the frequency of feeding and feed heavier or you could even start dosing some form of Nitrate in the form of Potassium or Sodium, we have issues getting these kind of materials in the UK but I'm sure you can get them State side.

I thinks its better to see a little browning of Corals due to excess No3 than dead corals due to the lack of No3 until you can stabilise your system again.

In the mean time I would also maintain a higher dose of Reef Energy, any Corals that look as if they are struggling I would turn your flow pumps of for the same time as you skimmer and target feed your Corals with Energy, make a kind of cloud around them, this will ensure they are fed and help with there recovery.

I didn't think about target feeding the Energy A&B I usually put my power heads in feeding mode and pour the Energy into the powerhead and turn my water yellow. Then cut the skimmer back on after about 20min. Tonight I will try target feeding them. I think I am going the route of heavier feeding and less water changes to raise my NO3 and PO4. Should I mix in some Rotifers or Reef Chili in the Energy A&B when I target feed?

 

[brad65ford]

Kissman what are your last p04 and no3 values?

 

[kissman]

Kissman what are your last p04 and no3 values?

last night on a Hanna HC 736 ULR PO4 reading was 0 ran it twice with the Red Sea Pro kit read .02

NO3 was .5 Red Sea Pro kit

 

[brad65ford]

I went from almost undetectable p04 and no3 to .2 p04 and 3.0 N03. Here is my 2 1/2 week results.

 

[deepseadan]

Hi Kissman, thanks for the invite, I have to say folks this is a great thread and there are many things here that I would like to think I can help.

Please, I am going to relate to a lot of things Red Sea so before we start my apologies.

We have seen a lot of the issues you folks are referring to in this thread, and yes loss or lack of colors being one of them.

There is as I am sure you know a very close relationship between many elements in any Reef Aquarium, this includes what we call Foundation Elements, of Alkalinity, Calcium and Magnesium, these alone with major and minor trace elements ( We call these Coral colors) make up the skeleton of or hard Corals especially SPS, we then have this skeleton covered with the tissue that covers the skeleton, where does the color come into this I hear you ask, and this is where things get interesting.

It is the density of the Symbiotic Zooxanthellae Algae living in the tissue that gives the coral its color.

Ok, where does this information come from, Red Sea scientists spent 5 years developing our new Reef Care Program and it was during this research using cell biology of corals we were able to determine their exact physiological and nutritional requirements.


Quite a few folks have hit exactly on what I believe is Kissman's issue here and it stems from No Nitrate, you only have to look at the many reports all over the internet on Nitrate levels in seawater, they are nearly always at trace or low levels never Nil.

We spent a lot of time and effort developing our No3Po4-X to do exactly this, being able to control Algae Nutrient levels at low nutrient levels of 0.25ppm No3 and 0.02 Po4 and for those wishing to rapidly grow there SPS by increasing the Foundation level and increasing Algae Nutrient levels to 1 to 2 ppm No3 and 0.08ppm Po4.

Now I don't want to turn this thread into Ask Red Sea etc but I'm always happy to try and answer any questions you may have on the Reef Care Range so feel free to visit http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=573 or PM me, work load in Europe sometimes will mean my response might be slow but I'll my best.

RedSeaKev :beer:

What exactly is in reef foundation and reef energy?

 

[redwingrob40]

No, there was not enough rise in them to kill coral. If anything the rise would have helped. This coral has never really done great since I got it. Never did bad either really, just never grew. About a year agon I was missing this coral and found upside down in the sand. Thought it was dead then, but it came back. This time I am not sure what happened to it. But, I don't think it will come back, I am going to leave it in the tank and see.

Ah so it was one of those, the ones that just kinda are there, they don't grow or really do anything.... Guess that's an unfortunate part of the hobby...

Keep us posted about how it goes with the target feeding of the A&B, will be interested to see how your corals respond.

 

[redwingrob40]

I went from almost undetectable p04 and no3 to .2 p04 and 3.0 N03. Here is my 2 1/2 week results.

View attachment 216151

Wow looking good, PE is much better now!!! What have you done to raise your PO4 and NO3 levels?

 

[kissman]

I went from almost undetectable p04 and no3 to .2 p04 and 3.0 N03. Here is my 2 1/2 week results.

View attachment 216151

Nice job! I also would love to know! what did you do to raise your PO3 and NO4? I am over feeding, dosing A&B, and cut back to 1 a week water changes but thinking of going to 1 every 2 weeks

 

[Acronic]

Keep your same wc sched to keep trace elements in check.

The response in this thread is crazy! Now you have to keep us updated

 

[kissman]

Keep your same wc sched to keep trace elements in check.

The response in this thread is crazy! Now you have to keep us updated

I hope everybody will keep the updates coming. I know I will! I am hoping to get my tank squared away I want more SPS

 

[brad65ford]

Nice job! I also would love to know! what did you do to raise your PO3 and NO4? I am over feeding, dosing A&B, and cut back to 1 a week water changes but thinking of going to 1 every 2 weeks

Honestly.... I added new semi cured Live rock and removed a lot of base rock (dry rock) from the tank basically I did an over-hall on the whole tank.

I was going to ask you Kissman, how old is you tank and or the sand if you have a sb? At what point would it be your diversity of life is exhausted?

Yes all eyes are on you, at some point its got to be tuff figuring out an issue like this since I've been in the same boat and its usually a combination of things. I partly believe once your live rock / tank goes ULNS its a b it h to get her going again.

Not bashing RS here since I love their products and use them to this day RS has actually setup up there game big time with their new line of kits. But i do envy most of these other company's selling bottle cures since all they have to do is make a pretty looking bottle and tell people it "can" the cure to their problem. The reef hobby market must be a gold mine IMO. But anyway that is another story all together.:lol:

I really don't know your setup but I'm wondering if you would be interesting in showing more photos and explain more details of your schedule or any early photos of your tanks life. How old is the system? Would you consider adding more new live rock and removing older pieces if need be and or removing the sand bed if you have one?

Brad

 

[kissman]

Bout 4 years ago I decided to quit smoking. I needed something to keep me busy at home after work. I decided to dive into my tank. It was in bad shape tried and tried to get nitrates down and just gave up. Everything was dead with exception of a chocolate chip starfisf. Nitrates were 160+ppm. I was going to fix this and I did. I tokk all rock out and cleaned it I also added more rock. I vaccumed every inch of my sand bed to the glass in the bottom. I also added new sand. So I basicly started with a new sand bed. I have a 4" sand bed and I love the look of a sandbed. I have a Gobie that needs the sand. I really don't want to get rid of my sand. I did huge water changes to get my NO3 down and I did. Once they hit 20 I started dosing vodka, then stopped that and eventually went to Vinegar. My water change schedule has been a 5g water change on Sun and one on Thurs. I have changed that to every Sun since I am trying to "dirty" the water up a bit. I always take a turkey baster and blast the rocks when I do a water change. Also skim the top layer of the sandbed when I vaccum water out. In between that I will do it and let the skimmer pick up anything. Plus its a food source for the corals. Change bulbs out every 10 months. Clean skimmer cup every 3 days. Make Kalk/topoff water every 5 days. Run tests every Wed. night. I was chnaging GFO and Carbon out every 2 weeks. Now they are offline. Most of the Xenia is now gone off the rocks with the SPS. There is still some around anemone but I didn't take those rocks out of tank

This is when I started fixing