Herbie ? 3/4" syphon 1" emergency

[dadummy]

Hey there,

Have a 150g with dual overflows drilled for 1" and 3/4 bulkheads. Whats your experience or thoughts on piping the return over the back of the tank and use the 3/4" bulkhead for the syphon and the 1" for the emergency overflow.

return pump is a mag 12, may try a DC variable speed pump, if the reviews are decent on running one external

thanks for your time

 

[JJ70]

Far from an expert but that's what I'm doing with my 120g with dual overflows. It should work based on my research. A perfectly level tank will help dial in the siphons.

 

[ca1ore]

Smaller pipe siphon, larger pipe open channel backup ......

 

[dadummy]

ok cool, will give it a shot..thanks

 

[uncleof6]

ok cool, will give it a shot..thanks

That should be smaller pipe siphon, larger pipe DRY emergency. There is no open channel in a herbie system. If there is, it is not safe.

 

[ca1ore]

Agree to disagree!

 

[uncleof6]

Agree to disagree!

Read the first page of Herbie's thread! There is no open channel. Some wish to implement an open channel, which did not come up in reference to "Herbie" till after Bean published his design, rather than a DRY emergency, however that does not make it advisable, nor does it make it safe. The only way to make it safe, is to add a dry emergency, and then you have a BA system, after reconfiguring the open channel to create a fail safe.

The OP even sees that: Look at the title to this thread! There is advice, and then there is good advice. I don't really need to agree to disagree.

JJ70: A dual herbie system works, I may not have been the first to think it up, but I was among the first, five years ago give or take. However it is possible to greatly improve the drain system in what I call "not reef ready" tanks. More information concerning those improvements can be found in Bean's thread.

As was indicated above, balancing the system is a pain. Adding to that the inherent instability of the "Herbie," it can be a genuine PITA. Some deal with the instability by using an "broken" version of Bean's open channel, this reduces the reliability of the system, and I have already touched on that above. Also, even with the tank perfectly level, both siphons are not going to flow the same. In a perfect world they would, but they won't. It could vary a lot or a little, but it can get frustrating. Some may want to suggest tying both siphons together, however that creates a single point that will cause a failure of both siphons at the same time. Considerably lowering the reliability of the system further. It is never good advice to design a system that is less reliable, than the original system.

 

[ca1ore]

I have had this debate with a friend if mine for 25 years since we both started using a siphon drain (prior to herbie, I might add) and I doubt you can add a thing we haven't already discussed ad nauseum. While I accept the conceptual argument that an open channel backup is less risky kept dry than with trickle, this argument fails in the light of practicality. But maybe you're right, and a trickle through the emergency will result in a flood, say once every 30 years. I'd better really pay attention for the next 5 years :lol:

 

[sleepydoc]

Ah, the old 'wet herbie' debate! I see it this way: There are 3 ways to run a siphon system -

1. 'Dry' Herbie - full siphon with a totally dry emergency standpipe (the way Herbie originally described his system.)
2. Bean Animal - 1 full siphon standpipe, 1 'open channel' or Durso standpipe, 1 Dry emergency standpipe
3. 'Wet' Herbie - 1 full siphon standpipe and 1 open channel/Durso standpipe; essentially a Bean Animal without the dry standpipe

A dry Herbie is safe when run as such, just difficult to keep tuned. The problem with a dry Herbie is that it is difficult to keep tuned. Frequently it turns into a wet Herbie either by accident, or by design. Since it is much easier to keep a wet Herbie tuned, many people use this system.

Now for the safety question: The Bean Animal system is the safest. There is no debate about that. By design, it has two backup systems, so you would need a failure of both backups to have a flood. It is still possible to have a flood with a Bean, but extremely unlikely as both the open channel and the dry emergency standpipes would need to get plugged at the same time. (Has this happened to anyone?)

The debate comes in when comparing a wet Herbie vs a Bean Animal and the question is really, "Is a wet Herbie safe enough?" As I've said before, safety is not determined by the outcome, but rather an assessment of the likelihood of an adverse outcome occurring. (eg. Nick Wallenda walked a tight rope over the grand canyon. He made it to the other side, but no one is arguing that what he did was safe even though nothing bad happened.)

There are two ways a wet Herbie can fail: plugging the siphon standpipe, or plugging the wet standpipe. If the siphon fails the wet standpipe should be able to handle the extra. If the wet standpipe plugs, the siphon standpipe can not handle all the flow and you will have a flood. The other risk is that you have an unrecognized partial obstruction in the wet standpipe (like a snail) when the full standpipe plugs. If the partial obstruction is large enough, you will have a flood in this scenario as well. This may seem unlikely, but there is more than one report of it occurring. Personally, I have had several partial occlusions of the wet standpipe when running a wet Herbie.

So saying that a wet Herbie failure "will never happen" is a bit delusional. I can and has happened multiple times. You can say "It may happen, but the risk is low enough for me and I accept that risk." That's fine and that's everyone's personal decision. The real problem occurs when it does happen and the odds of it happening are suddenly 100%. At that point the question becomes "are you prepared for the consequences?" :hmm5:

 

[uncleof6]

Read the first page of Herbie's thread! There is no open channel. Some wish to implement an open channel, which did not come up in reference to "Herbie" till after Bean published his design, rather than a DRY emergency, however that does not make it advisable, nor does it make it safe. The only way to make it safe, is to add a dry emergency, and then you have a BA system, after reconfiguring the open channel to create a fail safe.

The OP even sees that: Look at the title to this thread! There is advice, and then there is good advice. I don't really need to agree to disagree.

JJ70: A dual herbie system works, I may not have been the first to think it up, but I was among the first, five years ago give or take. However it is possible to greatly improve the drain system in what I call "not reef ready" tanks. More information concerning those improvements can be found in Bean's thread.

As was indicated above, balancing the system is a pain. Adding to that the inherent instability of the "Herbie," it can be a genuine PITA. Some deal with the instability by using an "broken" version of Bean's open channel, this reduces the reliability of the system, and I have already touched on that above. Also, even with the tank perfectly level, both siphons are not going to flow the same. In a perfect world they would, but they won't. It could vary a lot or a little, but it can get frustrating. Some may want to suggest tying both siphons together, however that creates a single point that will cause a failure of both siphons at the same time. Considerably lowering the reliability of the system further. It is never good advice to design a system that is less reliable, than the original system.

With this post, the second part was not in response to JJ70, rather in response to the OPs first post. E.G. it is mis-addressed.

 

[blueramSeattle]

If you mean "dual overflows" like 2 boxes physically separated with 2 drilled he's each (4 total) I would like to introduce the idea of making a T on the two 3/4" syphons (I used 2x 3/4 barbed and 1x 1" threaded to gate valve) so that you only have 1 gate valve and you have a mechanism to balance the levels on the overflow boxes. Granted, the two overflows could be 1" off from eachother but I found 1 gate valve to be easier than 2 ball valves.

I had to open the valve fully at times to flush (it was on my planted tank) but it seemed easy enough.

I would be able to tell when the sponge on the return pump was clogging because the levels in the overflow boxes would fall.

 

[uncleof6]

If you mean "dual overflows" like 2 boxes physically separated with 2 drilled he's each (4 total) I would like to introduce the idea of making a T on the two 3/4" syphons (I used 2x 3/4 barbed and 1x 1" threaded to gate valve) so that you only have 1 gate valve and you have a mechanism to balance the levels on the overflow boxes. Granted, the two overflows could be 1" off from eachother but I found 1 gate valve to be easier than 2 ball valves.

I had to open the valve fully at times to flush (it was on my planted tank) but it seemed easy enough.

I would be able to tell when the sponge on the return pump was clogging because the levels in the overflow boxes would fall.

This results in a single point of failure that will disable both siphons. As I said above, there is back up, provided the back up is dry. However, it is not wise to intentionally build a system with a single point of failure for two components, making a far less reliable system.

 

[ca1ore]

There are two ways a wet Herbie can fail: plugging the siphon standpipe, or plugging the wet standpipe. If the siphon fails the wet standpipe should be able to handle the extra. If the wet standpipe plugs, the siphon standpipe can not handle all the flow and you will have a flood. The other risk is that you have an unrecognized partial obstruction in the wet standpipe (like a snail) when the full standpipe plugs. If the partial obstruction is large enough, you will have a flood in this scenario as well. This may seem unlikely, but there is more than one report of it occurring. Personally, I have had several partial occlusions of the wet standpipe when running a wet Herbie.

A good summary. Not sure that any kind of major occlusion can't be mitigated with the simple remedy of a screen on both the siphon and the wet backup, but it is one more thing to keep an eye on and maintain I suppose. FWIW, I myself have never had a major blockage of either a siphon or a wet standpipe. A sample size of only one though.

 

[SGT_York]

I had a 120 rr and tried every version of a herbie imaginable.

One of the benefits of being military and moving every two years.

My advice to anyone with dual overflows is the T joint herbie. It does present a single point of failure but you have two backups so there really isn't any more risk than with a BA system. I used the 3/4" pipes enlarged the pipe to 1" and T'd down to a 3/4" gate and drop into the sump. If you make each side exactly plumbed the same the height difference is negligible as whatever overflow is higher generates more flow through the siphon, it functions like a balancing pipe. (It's a bit tricky as the smaller diameters are almost always on the outside)

The one herbie in each overflow works very well too, slightly more challenging to get it up and adjusted, but works fine.

With the occlusion I've had the siphon line and the standard durso pipes suck down snails. once both at the same time thankfully the third durso worked like a charm so no flood. Then I just bought a $5 lid for the overflows and had zero issues since.

 

[dadummy]

thanks for the info, ended up building two durso standpipes (again) and will use the 3/4 returns in the overflows. I wanted to make it quiet. Strange thing is my wife and son both like the noise and talked me out of the herbie ?!? We took the tank down a few months ago to fix up the house, took quiet some time to get used to how quiet the house is. I can hear it now, it's too noisy in here, can ya quiet the tank down lol