Here's a dumb question!
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DustinB
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These are not ignorant answers. You are not cycling a tank properly.
I too have used nothing but established live rock, which leaves me with almost no cycle time. I have never lost anything on the rock, whether it be a coral, worms, or whatever else. All of my rock is still very diverse with life.
What you are calling a cycle is not even really a cycle. You don't add ammonia reducing chemicals when you cycle a tank. The whole point of cycling is getting the bacteria in the rock and sand to be able to build up in large enough numbers to handle the load of ammonia and complete the nitrification cycle. Once ammonia and nitrite read 0 then you add a fish or 2 in order to further boost the bacterial colonies.
This is the same thing as adding a bunch of fish to an established tank. Too much of a load change without enough time for the tank to adapt will cause another cycle.
That being said, you can have almost no cycle at all if you start with established rock, not "cured" rock, and use a fair amount of water from where the rock came from. The sand will still have to "cycle", but it will produce no ammonia/die-off. It will just grow the required bacterial colonies. Even using this method you only want to start with a low bioload.
Don't be so defensive, a lot of people put mass amounts of time and energy into their tanks so everything is done the right way. You can only expect people to react this way when you say you are using sacrificial fish to cycle a tank, especially when you are not even cycling the tank, just possibly killing fish. Take your time, do it the right way, resist the urge for something "shiny" in your tank.
Good luck!
I too have used nothing but established live rock, which leaves me with almost no cycle time. I have never lost anything on the rock, whether it be a coral, worms, or whatever else. All of my rock is still very diverse with life.
What you are calling a cycle is not even really a cycle. You don't add ammonia reducing chemicals when you cycle a tank. The whole point of cycling is getting the bacteria in the rock and sand to be able to build up in large enough numbers to handle the load of ammonia and complete the nitrification cycle. Once ammonia and nitrite read 0 then you add a fish or 2 in order to further boost the bacterial colonies.
This is the same thing as adding a bunch of fish to an established tank. Too much of a load change without enough time for the tank to adapt will cause another cycle.
That being said, you can have almost no cycle at all if you start with established rock, not "cured" rock, and use a fair amount of water from where the rock came from. The sand will still have to "cycle", but it will produce no ammonia/die-off. It will just grow the required bacterial colonies. Even using this method you only want to start with a low bioload.
Don't be so defensive, a lot of people put mass amounts of time and energy into their tanks so everything is done the right way. You can only expect people to react this way when you say you are using sacrificial fish to cycle a tank, especially when you are not even cycling the tank, just possibly killing fish. Take your time, do it the right way, resist the urge for something "shiny" in your tank.
Good luck!
ME being defensive? Your answer was logical and well laid out without being offensive. Everyone else labeled me a fish murdered akin to a barbarian and wrote me off. I appreciate your response and taking the time to help me understand what I did wrong. This is how people learn. I used to have several reef tanks many years ago (more than 15) when people used to use only trickle filters. Now we know more about the bacteria cycle and I'm getting up to speed. I can use all the help I can get. But what I DON'T need is people acting like retarded children instead of being helpful.
That being said, at no point did the fish ever look in distress. I monitored the levels daily to be sure they were doing well. I slightly overfed the tank to help the bacteria (the bacteria from the water that was brought in from the LFS in the bags, the live sand I added to the tank and to the refugium, and the natural bacteria that develops in all tanks) levels mature naturally. The fish are now back at the LFS as store credit and I have a live rock shipment coming in tomorrow.
As I see it, I already have SOME bacteria in the tank and it is ready to add some live rock. At the very least the tank is better now than when I first filled it up. I already have several weekly water changes on it, too, and that certainly helped keep the fish healthy.
I appreciate your response and look forward to more like it. As for sacrifical fish, you run the risk of fish death every single day. If I threw a few fish into a tank to help it cycle and they were under no real stress (since you say it didn't really cycle the tank anyway), I don't see the harm. No fish died, there was no stress, no high levels were ever detected in the tank (above the norm), and at the very least, I helped grow SOME bacteria. There's no downside IMO. Others are welcome to disagree.
That being said, at no point did the fish ever look in distress. I monitored the levels daily to be sure they were doing well. I slightly overfed the tank to help the bacteria (the bacteria from the water that was brought in from the LFS in the bags, the live sand I added to the tank and to the refugium, and the natural bacteria that develops in all tanks) levels mature naturally. The fish are now back at the LFS as store credit and I have a live rock shipment coming in tomorrow.
As I see it, I already have SOME bacteria in the tank and it is ready to add some live rock. At the very least the tank is better now than when I first filled it up. I already have several weekly water changes on it, too, and that certainly helped keep the fish healthy.
I appreciate your response and look forward to more like it. As for sacrifical fish, you run the risk of fish death every single day. If I threw a few fish into a tank to help it cycle and they were under no real stress (since you say it didn't really cycle the tank anyway), I don't see the harm. No fish died, there was no stress, no high levels were ever detected in the tank (above the norm), and at the very least, I helped grow SOME bacteria. There's no downside IMO. Others are welcome to disagree.
DustinB
New member
I'll give you that, some of them were a bit offensive and overly harsh without real explanation.
In your case I don't see a big problem with the fish being put in as far as it's risk goes, since you are doing water changes. The big problem would be if you did it with dead or mostly cured rock, tons of dieoff. It was just that the fish was before the rock, but that's been stated to death already. Just understand that without rock there really was no proper cycle and good rock should have been added. Actually the bacteria on and in the rock can help everything else along. If there's no real dieoff then there's not much of a cycle to take place with or without rock. Adding rock from someone's tank already has the filtering capacity so it's really ready for fish right away. Just be aware the rock may still have a bit of dieoff from a lower bioload than it's propagated to.
You should be just fine adding your established rock now. Keep reading, you'll be right into it in no time.
In your case I don't see a big problem with the fish being put in as far as it's risk goes, since you are doing water changes. The big problem would be if you did it with dead or mostly cured rock, tons of dieoff. It was just that the fish was before the rock, but that's been stated to death already. Just understand that without rock there really was no proper cycle and good rock should have been added. Actually the bacteria on and in the rock can help everything else along. If there's no real dieoff then there's not much of a cycle to take place with or without rock. Adding rock from someone's tank already has the filtering capacity so it's really ready for fish right away. Just be aware the rock may still have a bit of dieoff from a lower bioload than it's propagated to.
You should be just fine adding your established rock now. Keep reading, you'll be right into it in no time.
Honestly, I've read my ### off and I'm still doing it. I have an entire collection of reef books (all over 15 years old) so I'm still getting updated. I used to use black mollies because they were expendable but that was just the way it "was done."
I change water quite often to keep the levels in check, not just because of the health of the fish, but because I want to get rid of the detritus. The fish were VERY well taken care of. I fed them three different types of foods to keep them healthy so they were never starved, either.
I expect a bit of die off from the new live rock. You never know how well a place did of curing it. I'm wondering about the smell from the tank. I have it at my office and I would like to limit the smell of "low tide at the pier."
I change water quite often to keep the levels in check, not just because of the health of the fish, but because I want to get rid of the detritus. The fish were VERY well taken care of. I fed them three different types of foods to keep them healthy so they were never starved, either.
I expect a bit of die off from the new live rock. You never know how well a place did of curing it. I'm wondering about the smell from the tank. I have it at my office and I would like to limit the smell of "low tide at the pier."
DustinB
New member
Look around on some local forums or the "list" that I don't know if can be mentioned here or not. A lot of people are taking down their tanks and selling off piece by piece. I just picked up 50 pounds of good established rock to add to my tank for $50. No cycle at all. Worlds better than the stuff out of the tub in the LFS. Just be sure to shake the rock really good in some saltwater. I did a water change and saved a 5 gallon bucket of my water to rinse the rock in before adding to the tank.
Do you use any adhesive to attach the rock together to prevent an avalanche? I've been checking into maybe something like aquarium sealant. I have insurance on my tank but I'd rather not send 90+ gallons of saltwater onto the folks downstairs at the office. I've also read some stuff about coral rinse to help with parasites. Do you use this stuff, too?
glextank
New member
Another thing I saw, is don't add the water from the lfs bags to your tank. You have NO IDEA what's in there. Could be copper, or some other treatment, you never know. Proper acclimating, is to add a 1/4 cup or so of tank water every 10-15 minutes to the bag, until it is full, then dump half of that water down the drain. Repeat procedure. Then scoop fish/or whatever outta the bag WITHOUT bringing any water. There are other ways to do it too, like a drip line to accomplish the same idea. But i've found that to be easy. Don't know if thats different than what your used to, but I understand it's a very important thing to know.
If you get copper in your tank, you can never keep an invert in the tank.
If you get copper in your tank, you can never keep an invert in the tank.
Jormungandr
New member
+1
The only thing is some fish can get stuck in nets. The lfs told me this about one of my clowns. If you can visually see that the inverts are kept in the same system as the fish, then I'd be ok with putting it in my system. Yes, I understand the parameters might be off or there might be undesired things in the water, but what else can you do?
DustinB
New member
You know, I just started to worry about mine after adding that extra 50 pounds, especially with a bullet goby in the tank. I stopped by home depot tonight and picked up some "water weld" by JB Weld. From what I read it's reef safe, seen a lot of cases where it has been used. Best yet, it's only $4 a stick. Home depot used to carry something called aquamend, which is no longer carried, they carry this stuff now. I guess we'll see how it works.
You can also find some of the more expensive stuff online for about $12 a stick if you don't want to wait for the white to turn purple with coraline. I guess it really depends on how well they fit together and how tall, or if you want that extra bit of confidence. Be sure to lower your skimmer level just in case the epoxy makes it foam like crazy for a bit. I'll let you know if this stuff does.
As for dipping, there's a lot of different things out there, a good number that I have read of people using. Personally, I have never dipped any corals, though I should probably start. Like dumping a petco tang in your tank, been there before. :furious:
DustinB
New member
Pour the water out of the bag keeping the fish in it. The let the fish slide into the tank. Out of water for less than 5 seconds, little to no outside water in your tank. :thumbsup:
Some people also fresh water dip their new livestock, never done that myself. Read thoroughly if you think about doing that!
I 100% agree with you, except for a few things:
1) there's nothing in the tank to kill. That wouldn't be true if I added live rock first.
2) The fish had already been exposed to potential parasites in the LFS tanks. If you treated them in a quarantine tank first, you're likely to still get some in the DT by dipping the same net into it.
3) Since many people use tap water to fill their DT for the first time, god knows what is already in the water! If you don't have a good copper test kit (considering how cheap they are!) then you don't have any sense keeping inverts...at all.
4) In this new tank that wouldn't house ANY inverts for quite some time (due to my cycling process) I was wanting to get ANY bacteria I could from the LFS water that I could to help out. There wasn't much in the bag anyway so it was a calculated risk.
As a final bullet point, I'll also add that many people say if you want to get the "good" bacteria, it's best to get some from the LFS. What else are you bringing home with it? It's like passing your tank through a quarantine station during the 1930s! Yet many people say to do it to help things along. I never understood that logic.
JuliusJames
ReefB4H**s
wow, just wow.. if you were my son, id slap you in the face. :mad2:
I used filtered water but I've heard of many people using tap water. I can't imagine much worse. Water running through ancient lead, copper, or iron pipes. Not to mention what they put in it (in some cities, they even use flouride) to keep it clean enough to drink. I wonder how many LFSs use RO units on their actual tanks?
Mine has a giant trickle filter shared among all their tanks but I haven't ever seen a RO unit. I may ask just for peace of mind. I've always wondered how the fish don't share disease with the main filtration unit spreading the water between tanks. I'm sure they have a UV sterilizer working overtime.
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