Hippo Tang w/ Ich

[saltybastard]

I had a similair problem and had similair answers which left me even more confused. This is what I did:

When I got the fish, I threw it straight into the display. I kept the fish in question (purple tang) in the display tank and let it try to fight the ick off itself (this has proven successful with my yellow and powder blue). All my tangs had ick over the first week or so when introduced to the tank.

I waited until the fish began showing signs of reduced appetite before i took it out. usually when this happens, it goes downhill pretty fast.

I took it out and put it in a 15 gallon quarantine tank and treated it with copper. I didn't think this was going to have any effect but too my surprise, within two days, the fish began eating with an appetite and had cleared up significantly. I kept it in there for about a week and when it began to start looking miserable in such a confined little tank, I threw it back in the display tank.

That was over a year ago and it has since become the head honcho of the tank, taking no crap from any other fish.

 

[ezhoops]

Saltybastard: I had the similar thoughts of waiting and in fact I had a blue hippo tang which I did exactly that. He was in DT for 3 weeks with so many white spots you could barely tell he was blue. He was completely fine for all this time, eating well, picking at rocks, swimming and doing great. I think the downfall was that when I went back to work the fish weren't getting the 4 feedings a day they were used to and so his immunity went down. Last night I noticed he really wasn't eating and not swimming so much. I put all the fish in QT last night treated with Cupramine. Everyone was fine this morning and then I noticed the blue hippo tang stuck to the HOB filter?????????

I am currently treating a pair of clowns and a flagfin angel, all are eating. 1ml of curpamine per 10.5 gal and water temp of 80.
wish me luck

From now on everything goes into QT first

How do you treat inverts? or should I phrase this, when I want to purchase an invert and add to DT how will I treat.

 

[ArtemisGoldfish]

There's a few things to cover here.

1. Hyposalinity is a crapshoot. There are some varieties of Crypt that do survive in hyposaline waters.

A. Freshwater bath for your fish is a bad idea. While it is true that the Crypt can't make the osmotic stretch, you're not going to effectively treat the parasites that are buried BENEATH the epithelium of the fish. Also, you're going to do a number on the fish's organs by doing this. Imagine being taken from your computer chair and being put on Mt. Everest without a respirator.

2. Crypto, Velvet and so forth will exist as long as there are hosts for them to infect. Yes, you can hope to stabilize your fish, but you're not going to get rid of the problem and it will turn up sooner or later.

3. Temperature affects the life cycle of the parasite. Higher temperatures are effective at speeding up the entire parasitic cycle, however one has to keep in mind the tolerances of the fish. Additionally, there is a slight change in the life cycle with small degree changes at the higher end of the spectrum versus the jump from 60 degrees to 77ish. Keep your fish at the temperature that they would experience in the wild. I'm not an advocate for anything above 80. For the purposes of quarantining and ridding the affected tank of the parasite, the effectiveness of the degree jump is not worth stressing the fish.

4. Coppersafe or Cupramine. Buy it, use it. Get a copper testing kit. It kills anything that's not fish, so no don't treat your coral or anything else without fins (IE, not in your display tank).

5. Cleaner Shrimp will not fix the situation. It's physically impossible as the shrimp would have to puncture the fish to remove the parasite. These shrimp remove external tissue and may be able to remove some of the encysting parasites that are on the top most layer of skin, but they will not cure the fish.

6. Garlic treatment is PURELY anecdotal. Some scientists speculate that it may disrupt the chemical signals as stated before, but there's no hard data to prove this. There are also studies that suggest that garlic can have negative effects on fish organs, so keep that in mind.

7. This horse has long been smashed into glue, however I'll say it again: Quarantine everything. It doesn't matter if it looks good or your local fish jockey says the fish is perfectly fine. Assume it's not. Quarantine for a period of 21 to 30 days in an appropriate recepticle prior to placing it into your display tank. Yes, this means corals, clams and whatever else that is going into your tank.

A. No, corals, clams or shrimp can not become infected by Crypt, Velvet or any other fish diseases, however they CAN carry the parasites in from another tank. Anything wet can technically transmit it. Corals and the like also have their own issues. Additionally, don't use the same quarantine tank for fish as you would for your corals for obvious treatment reasons. Also, as copper is ADsorbed onto glass, you can have the issue of it possibly leaching into the water.

Solution:

1. Remove your fish from the tank as you did. It sucks; I know, I've had to do it with a tank full of rock, coral and everything else.

2. Quarantine with the copper treatment of your choice.

3. Let the tank go fallow for at least four weeks, with a preference to eight. This will give you an almost 99.9% guarantee for having a parasite free DT.

4. Profit!

 

[suta4242]

Sorry but there seems to be a lot of misinformation in this thread.

There are isolates of C. irritans that have thrived in brackish water, but this isn't the same as hyposaline water. If someone has a link to published literature - not a magazine article - saying otherwise, let me know. Research is always yeilding new results, so I may be out of touch with progress here.:beer:

But I'm willing to bet a lot of people don't properly calibrate their refractometer giving an erroneous reading, or don't maintain treatment long enough (hypo only starts from the time the last spot is visible or symptoms disappear). Or they unintentionally reinfect the tank. Its very easy to do. Then when sg returns to normal so does the MI. :thumbdown

As pointed out earlier, if a FW dip helps an infected fish breathe normally again, there are two reasons. One, the free swimming stage has just reached the gills and hasn't embedded itself deeply yet, or two, your fish hasn't got MI.

Whether you use Cupramine or hyposalinity, you need to understand how to prevent side effects from damaging the fish. eg ammonia surges during the transition to hypo, use of dechlorinators with Cupramine, pH swings during hypo, high pH while ammonia is present, etc... So its natural to blame the treatment for deaths, when it could be user error.

Finally, if MI is advanced then you're between a rock and a hard place. For example you may have ignored the first or even second cycle, not noticed it, or tried pointless treatments. Then one morning you wake up and see a fish completely covered in spots. Or worse, having trouble breathing. Its probably the only time I'd be reluctant to use hyposalinity as a first choice, as it may take a few days to offer relief for the fish. OTOH the fish may already be weak, and unable to withstand Cupramine. In this instance, no matter what you do, there'll be an element of luck in the outcome.

 

[fishyness]

Lots of mis-information in this thread. Hyposalinity works if done properly. I just hope the newbies stay out of here.:wave:

 

[jameskb]

I would like to discuss this further. I've read that the basis of the garlic use is from (forgive me I forgot her name) a woman who is a puffer keeper and one of her puffers had come down with ich and she had tried to feed it a garlic soak food and the ich went away. This was reported and has gone gang busters since.

JamesKB: so what you are saying is the ich cannot find the fish because the fish is not emitting the normal smells or whatever the ich uses to identify the fish. This makes sense but I want to make sure everyone understands that it isn't a CURE for ich. This is the belief most hobbyists including myself are lead to believe.

I would also like to know where you read this or your source.

Thanks

I think I still have the aquarium magazine that made this claim in my house, it's an old one if I do I will have to look. It's intended as a preventative, it's correct that it WILL NOT CURE ICH if the fish is already infected, however it may aid to further dissuade the ich from attaching to the fish, although any such effect without a buildup of garlic in the body would be small at best.

Regular feedings to aide as a preventative would be wonderful, but it should not be used as an active medication to treat an infestation.

 

[ArtemisGoldfish]

Sorry but there seems to be a lot of misinformation in this thread.

There are isolates of C. irritans that have thrived in brackish water, but this isn't the same as hyposaline water. If someone has a link to published literature - not a magazine article - saying otherwise, let me know. Research is always yeilding new results, so I may be out of touch with progress here.:beer:

But I'm willing to bet a lot of people don't properly calibrate their refractometer giving an erroneous reading, or don't maintain treatment long enough (hypo only starts from the time the last spot is visible or symptoms disappear). Or they unintentionally reinfect the tank. Its very easy to do. Then when sg returns to normal so does the MI. :thumbdown

As pointed out earlier, if a FW dip helps an infected fish breathe normally again, there are two reasons. One, the free swimming stage has just reached the gills and hasn't embedded itself deeply yet, or two, your fish hasn't got MI.

Whether you use Cupramine or hyposalinity, you need to understand how to prevent side effects from damaging the fish. eg ammonia surges during the transition to hypo, use of dechlorinators with Cupramine, pH swings during hypo, high pH while ammonia is present, etc... So its natural to blame the treatment for deaths, when it could be user error.

Regarding the ineffectiveness of freshwater dips:

Colorni, A. "Aspects of the Biology of Cryptocaryon irritans and Hyposalinity as a Control Measure in Cultured Gilt-Head Sea Bream Sparus aurata." Diseases of Aquatic Organisms. 1, 19-22, 1985.

Colorni, A. & Burgess, P.J. "Cryptocaryon irritans Brown 1951, the Cause of White Spot Disease in Marine Fish: an Update." Aquarium Sciences and Conservation, 1, 217-238, 1997.

Regarding resistance to hyposaline conditions:

Yambot, A.V., Song, Y.L. & Sung, H.H. "œCharacterization of Cryptocaryon irritans, a Parasite Isolated from Marine Fishes in Taiwan." Diseases of Aquatic Organisms, 54, 147-156, 2003.

The parasite was found to be water conditions containing salinity of 5 PPT.

As for dechlorinators with Cupramine, I don't see why this was even brought up unless you can show how the Chelates somehow lose their bonds and become free copper. "Ammonia surges" also don't particularly make sense.

In regards to misinformation in my post, I'd like to see where.

 

[ezhoops]

Lots of mis-information in this thread. Hyposalinity works if done properly. I just hope the newbies stay out of here.:wave:

I'm not saying I'm an expert but please point out mis-information. making this statement is like saying there is a hidden bomb somewhere in the united states............:eek2:

If you don't point out we don't know what the mis-information is?

 

[sea of cortez]

I too have set up 2 QT tanks am starting the qt with copper in one tank but still not sure what to use for the copper sensitive fish in the other tank
None are showing signs of ich right now I want to let the DT go fallow
I was treatingthe DT with NO ICH reefsafe med and lost quite a few fish while doing so (sould be called more ich)
While I was setting up the QTs TCH popped up on the yellow tand 1 was completly covered not eating breathing hard and stuck in the rock certain it was going to be toast in the mournig I double dosed the tank with ICK ATTACK dark brown stinky stuff (what did I have to lose I had to do somthing and quick) next mournig the tang still covered ate, bye day 4 of treating it was all gone on all fish. but I still want to ley yhe tank go fallow to make sure its gone
Some people say fish not infected are able to build a resistance to ich does this mean they cannot be a host if you never see spots on them
The reson I ask is I have some Garden Eels whom have never shown any signs of Ick and are still in the displays dep sand bed since I dont think the eels can handle my QTs bare bottom
What about fish like sand sifting gobies that would be hard to feed without sand???

 

[jameskb]

From now on everything goes into QT first

How do you treat inverts? or should I phrase this, when I want to purchase an invert and add to DT how will I treat.

I'm not 100% expert on this but I don't think there are any diseases your inverts can bring in to your other inverts to kill them. If you mean them bringing in water with parasites, etc. I wouldn't worry about it. One of the long-standing theories I've heard of is that ich is ALWAYS present in a system, its nearly impossible to 100% eradicate all ich in a display tank. The only thing you have to really worry about is keeping the fish from getting stressed and susceptible to infestation.

If you do not believe in the ever-present ich theory however, you could always QT your inverts in an invert only QT tank for 4-5 weeks and theoretically any present parasites etc should die without a fish host in that time. No meds I know of though to treat anything with an invert, they are simply too sensitive.

 

[jameskb]

Some people say fish not infected are able to build a resistance to ich does this mean they cannot be a host if you never see spots on them
The reson I ask is I have some Garden Eels whom have never shown any signs of Ick and are still in the displays dep sand bed since I dont think the eels can handle my QTs bare bottom
What about fish like sand sifting gobies that would be hard to feed without sand???

What are you asking about the gobies?

Eels and some other fish are no susceptible to ich because of a VERY thick slime coat. This is an adaptation they have to living in rockwork and helps keep their bodies from injury as they slide into and out of rock crevices, etc. This slime coat makes it near impossible for the ich parasite to grab ahold. You will notice on other fish it generally infests the fins first, probably because they are thin tissues with thinner slime coats and easier to infest. An Eel's skin is exactly the opposite, lots of slime, so nowhere for the parasite to take hold.

I have NEVER seen an eel with ich. Some wrasse seem to have a similar immunity because they shed their THICK slime coats at night, on these wrasse (6-line wrasse) ich doesnt seem to stick around very long.

 

[jameskb]

Lots of mis-information in this thread. Hyposalinity works if done properly. I just hope the newbies stay out of here.:wave:

Insulting maybe? I dunno, who do you mean, and what information...

 

[sea of cortez]

The gobies, most of my gobies when first bought and brought home only eat by sifting they are eventually trained to eat frozen and flake food.
So the question is in QT with bare bottom how do you feed and treat them
And also the copper sensitve fish what to treat them with
Has anyone tried rid ich saw it on F/S site no copper in it

 

[ArtemisGoldfish]

I'm not 100% expert on this but I don't think there are any diseases your inverts can bring in to your other inverts to kill them.

There are. All sorts of fungi, intestinal parasites, etc. Plus, they can be carriers of other diseases. Quarantine everything.

The thing I try to instill in people regarding this hobby is that if you are dealing with living things. It's not like buying a set of Legos. People haphazardly throw critters together for asethetics purposes rather than think about what's best for the animals. That being said, you're putting your critters at a high potential for disease when you don't follow quaratine protocols. Even if you don't ascribe to the ethical paradigm, the sheer cost of constantly replacing and treating animals is something that can be avoided via my earlier stated quarantine method.

If you mean them bringing in water with parasites, etc. I wouldn't worry about it.

Read above.

One of the long-standing theories I've heard of is that ich is ALWAYS present in a system, its nearly impossible to 100% eradicate all ich in a display tank.

There's no scientific basis for that "theory." That's like saying tapeworms are always present in our bodies. It's a parasite, it needs a host to proliferate. No host = no parasite.

Eels and some other fish are no susceptible to ich because of a VERY thick slime coat. This is an adaptation they have to living in rockwork and helps keep their bodies from injury as they slide into and out of rock crevices, etc. This slime coat makes it near impossible for the ich parasite to grab ahold. You will notice on other fish it generally infests the fins first, probably because they are thin tissues with thinner slime coats and easier to infest. An Eel's skin is exactly the opposite, lots of slime, so nowhere for the parasite to take hold.

I have NEVER seen an eel with ich. Some wrasse seem to have a similar immunity because they shed their THICK slime coats at night, on these wrasse (6-line wrasse) ich doesnt seem to stick around very long.

Resistance =/ immunity.

These animals (the fish) are not immune, but they do have a resistance. As for eels, I can't say as I know nothing about them.


As for your gobies, for now, put them into a QT with sand and don't treat until you see signs of infection. They should eat brine, mysis or minced seafood with no problem. Once you're done with this process, you can toss the sand.

Cupramine works well for copper sensitive fish. It's been used successfully with Angels, etc.

No "reef safe" treatment is effective. It's all garbage. If there was some "magic bullet," it'd be all over the news as Crypto is a major issue for marine fisheries that produce for foodsources.

There is no easy way around the fallowing process. It sucks, it's boring and time consuming, however it's the most effective and is your best solution.

Re-read what I put on the 2nd page regarding quarantining.

Edit: Something else to note about Crypto - Just because the white spots go away doesn't mean the disease is gone. There are four stages to the life cycle. Visible cysts are only one of them.

 

[ezhoops]

so does anyone have a qt procedure for inverts that they would like to share?

 

[ArtemisGoldfish]

The point of having a tank without a substrate for quarantine purposes is just for the ease of cleanup, detritus build-up and to prevent chemical or medication build up/leaching.

If you need to qt something special with sand or whatever substrate. You can do so without having to worry about some mystical anecdotal don't use "x," etc.

so does anyone have a qt procedure for inverts that they would like to share?

I can, but which ones? Corals, shrimp, crabs, anems, snails ?

 

[sea of cortez]

"No "reef safe" treatment is effective. It's all garbage."

If you are refering to the RID ICH I mentioned above it is not considered reef safe it Contains formaldehyde and a zinc-free chloride salt of malachite green
Which from what I have been reading ingedients are good treatment for Ich, Brook, Velvet, Flukes and Uronema. I was just wondering if anyone has tried it as I have not
I was thinking it might be a good copper replacement treatment
And I must say again the Ich Attack worked for me, But I am not 100% sure it is gone thats why I am letting the DT go fallow

And yes I have learned my lesson I will QT everything for now on
1 neon gobie with 1 spot noticed after release in 2 weeks killed half my fish while treating with reef safe no ich (that did not work for me)

 

[ArtemisGoldfish]

"No "reef safe" treatment is effective. It's all garbage."

If you are refering to the RID ICH I mentioned above it is not considered reef safe it Contains formaldehyde and a zinc-free chloride salt of malachite green
Which from what I have been reading ingedients are good treatment for Ich, Brook, Velvet, Flukes and Uronema. I was just wondering if anyone has tried it as I have not
I was thinking it might be a good copper replacement treatment
And I must say again the Ich Attack worked for me, But I am not 100% sure it is gone thats why I am letting the DT go fallow

And yes I have learned my lesson I will QT everything for now on
1 neon gobie with 1 spot noticed after release in 2 weeks killed half my fish while treating with reef safe no ich (that did not work for me)

Malachite and so forth are marginally effective.

Bartelme, Terry. 2004. "News on the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans, Part 5." Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine, March 2004.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/mini5.htm

Bartelme, Terry. 2004. "News on the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans, Part 4." Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine, February 2004.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/mini4.htm

Bartelme, Terry. 2004. "News on the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans, Part 3." Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine, January 2004.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm

Bartelme, Terry. 2003. "News on the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans, Part 2." Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine, December 2003.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.htm

Bartelme, Terry. 2003. "News on the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans, Part 1." Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine, November 2003.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm

Check those out. It'll tell you everything you need to know with verified peer research. Copper is the most effective with hyposalinity following that and so forth on down.

 

[rayn]

I would also be interested in knowing how to qt inverts BESIDES corals; things like shrimp, snails, etc. These seem to be creatures that everyone has but nobody ever mentions quarantining them. The only thing I've heard is that they should be put into a tank that has never seen copper for eight weeks or so to kill of any parasites.

Qting them is no different then letting your tank go fallow. If your going to QT corals or any invert, place them in QT and let sit for the 4-8 weeks. Whichever you believe. I would recommend that you run some decent lights on your coral QT though, depending on size and amount of coral maybe a hob skimmer as well.

 

[ArtemisGoldfish]

I would also be interested in knowing how to qt inverts BESIDES corals; things like shrimp, snails, etc. These seem to be creatures that everyone has but nobody ever mentions quarantining them. The only thing I've heard is that they should be put into a tank that has never seen copper for eight weeks or so to kill of any parasites.

You can keep a small qt tank the same way you would with fish. Keep your critters of choice in there for 30 days or so. You would provide as normal.

Lighting isn't necessary for shrimp, crabs and snails, however lighting does modify how they feed and so forth. Nerites for example will scale the tank depending on night and day cycles. I use ambient light for the most part.

I keep my inverts in a small 20g like this. Don't mix your corals, clams and so forth with shrimp or crabs in your quarantine. You can run into issues with either group preying upon sessile inverts.

You are correct about avoiding putting inverts into a tank that has been treated with copper. While it can be cleaned or treated with Cuprisorb, Copper becomes adsorbed (no, that's not a typo) on to glass which can lead to it leaching. This leaching tends to be immeasurable by readily available testing kits, but still has a negative effect on inverts.