How do YOU ATO with your Apex?

[javajaws]

I'd like to see what convoluted/failsafe mechanisms you use to perform ATO with your Apex.

Here is the approach I was thinking of taking:

Have the Apex control a dosing pump at a set interval for xxx amount each day (set to dose just slightly more than observed evap rates). Also have 2 "high" float switches (an extra for backup) to turn off said dosing pump for a set duration in the event more topoff water is being added than is being evaporated.

I hesitate to rely on a "low" float as that one more than likely would be submerged 100% of the time and more prone to faiure. I'll perhaps add one just for the alerting though.

What does everyone else do? What is generally recognized as the safest/best approach without involving non-Apex electronic ATO devices?

 

[144HalfRound]

I'm looking for a similar "failsafe" for ATO. I was thinking of solenoids that I could put between the ATO and sump. It would have to be opened when not powered and close when power on. Then you could set it to come on when the PH hit a certain level. I'm not sure such solenoids exist and at what cost? Has anyone done this?

 

[Jocko]

I like using my conductivity probe as a fail-safe. Just in case everything else fails, it will make sure the ATO pump is off.

I also use a relatively small container to hold about 15 gallons of RODI water. This way, if for some reason the entire 15 gallons got dumped in my tank, it still wouldn't affect it that much since I have maybe 250 gallons of water in the system. Sure, the RODI will keep producing more water, but at a much slower rate. It will at least slow things down considerably. Better than having 60 gallons of RODI pumping in.

 

[slief]

I have redundant float switches. I made my own break out box with micro jacks. I use a 2 into one jack. My top off pump will only activate if both switches open. I also have redundant sump high switches which shut down the skimmer, activates alarms as well as adds another fail safe to the topoff. I have a soleniod inline on my topoff which is a normally closed solenoid that remains closed unless the low water float switches activate. I also use a dosing pump which

 

[javajaws]

I have redundant float switches. I made my own break out box with micro jacks. I use a 2 into one jack. My top off pump will only activate if both switches open. I also have redundant sump high switches which shut down the skimmer, activates alarms as well as adds another fail safe to the topoff. I have a soleniod inline on my topoff which is a normally closed solenoid that remains closed unless the low water float switches activate. I also use a dosing pump which

So do you ATO into your sump directly from the RO/DI via solenoid...or do you have a fw reservoir in the middle?

 

[niko5]

I have two float switches one to signal water low and one as a backup slightly higher if that one fails. Id like to get a cond probe just incase they both fail then it could shutoff if the salinity goes down. Below is my code, I also have several other parameters that stop it from filling.


If Outlet TopoffLow = ON Then ON
Defer 000:20 Then ON
If Outlet TopoffLow = OFF Then OFF
Defer 001:00 Then OFF
If FeedA 000 Then OFF
If FeedB 000 Then OFF
If FeedD 000 Then OFF
If FeedC 000 Then OFF
If Outlet TopoffHigh = ON Then OFF
If Outlet RODILow = ON Then OFF
If Outlet SumpHigh = ON Then OFF
If Outlet WaterFloor = ON Then OFF
If Outlet Maint_SW = ON Then OFF

 

[slief]

So do you ATO into your sump directly from the RO/DI via solenoid...or do you have a fw reservoir in the middle?

I have a 100G RODI reservoir in a shed in the back yard (behind the tank) that the ATO draws from and pumps directly into one of my sumps. You can see the dosing pump I use for my ATO above and between the holding tank on the left and the RODI. The solenoid is on the output line of the dosing pump in the shed. It only opens when the ATO turns on.

This is how my ATO water and automated water change lines are plumbed into the sump.

I created a handful of virtual outlets for various functions such as SumpTooFull, Waterbug, Addwater etc. but this is my ATO pump outlet programming which is also the same as my solenoid programming.

Fallback OFF
If Outlet AddWater = ON Then ON (This is for the ATO float switch)
If Outlet AddWater = OFF Then OFF (This is for the ATO float switch)
If Outlet Return = OFF Then OFF (This is for my return pump. If its off, I dont add water)
If Outlet SumpFull = ON Then OFF (This is a secondary float that adds another layer of redundancy)
If Outlet WaterBug = ON Then OFF (This is my water on the floor sensor. If there is water on the floor, ATO remains off)
If Outlet SalinityLow = ON Then OFF (I have the Apex conductivity probe. If my salinity is below a certain level, ATO stays off)
If Outlet SumpTooFull = ON Then OFF (Another level of redundancy. Emergency high water level switch which triggers alarms)
Min Time 015:00 Then ON (This insures that the ATO pump stays on long enough to insure enough water goes in so the ATO doesn't turn on and off and on and off)

 

[jrpark22000]

I have a 100G RODI reservoir in a shed in the back yard that the ATO draws from and pumps directly into one of my sumps.

Holy WOW. That is a lot of water.

My ATO system incorporates multiple layers of failsafe. I run 2 controllers an Ac3 and an Apex. Each has its own ATO system with separate pumps and float sensors. Each ATO system has high, low, call and ATO reservoir low floats. The AC3 is set a little higher in the sump so when it's reservoir runs out the Apex system takes over. When I get an Apex ATO low reservoir alarm I refill both. OSC commands in programming limiting the frequency and duration the system can call for ATO.

I prevent pump problems with the ATO high float switch acting as a dead-man switch. Also, there are alarm statements tied into each to notify me of a problem.

Lastly I have a separate float switches for high sump and high display incase everything else fails which kills return pump and ATOs.

 

[trivan]

I never liked the idea of unlimited ATO into the DT so I am using a Tunze ATO with the RO/DI to a tank. The Apex monitors the ATO Tank and RO/DI directly to the ATO Tank.

Here is my set up:
Equipment:
- 2 solenoid valves
- Apex Controller w/3 float switches to break out box
- Kent RO/DI Float valve
- Tunze ATO
- powerhead
- wet vac

I have 3 float switches in the ATO Tank, 1st-monitor low water level, 2nd-monitor for high water level, 3rd-to monitor if RO water is not shutting off via the solenoid (i.e. solenoids failed open and the high level sensor fails as well).

The powerhead is hooked up to the drain pipe I have running to the basement for WC's. I have timed that it takes roughly 1 minute for the RO to replace the water evaporated per day. Over 2:30 to completely fill my ATO Tank.

I have the solenoids programed to allow water for 2 minute each day. The first solenoid will open for 2 minutes, the 2nd solenoid activated via the float switch and if Solenoid 1 is off then Solenoid 2 is off.

The Apex will monitor the 3rd float switch, and if that one triggers, will turn the pump on pushing water out of the ATO Tank for 2 minutes, then the siphon kicks in and drains any remaining water out. (its a small ATO tank).

So I have a number of fail-safes in this set up:
- 2 solenoids and the 2 mins is not enough to overfill my ATO tank
- Float valve - mechanical back up
- powerhead pump to push water out in case above fails
- wet vac - nothing worked and I have a flood

Probably flaws somewhere in this convoluted set up, but it's been running for 1 week now and I've simulated overflows 5 times without failure. I guess if there is a power failure and the both solenoids fail open and the float valve gets stuck I'll be wet.

 

[Jocko]

My ATO system incorporates multiple layers of failsafe. I run 2 controllers an Ac3 and an Apex. Each has its own ATO system with separate pumps and float sensors.

LOL. 2 controllers. Now that is some serious redundancy! Well done!

 

[144HalfRound]

Has anyone come across a solenoid that is open when not powered and closes when power comes on. This seems like the ideal fail safe for ATO with a Kalk reactor. I run my ATO through my Kalk reactor. Recently my dosing pump failed and allowed Kalk mix to run through the pump even though it was off. You can imagine what this did to my PH ......and tank, serious melt down. If I had a solenoid in line between the water supply and the tank, I could have had it set to shut off if the ph went above 8.4. This would have prevented the problem. The problem with most solenoids is they are built to be closed when not powered. And they would burn out if you kept them powered continuously. Anyone know were I might find the correct type of solenoid.

 

[danil]

Redundancy is great! But I think having failure safe setup is even more important. We must think what would happened if all those float valves, solenoids, pumps failed? So first rule of thumb never connect endless supply of water to the tank. Use biggest container your sump can handle in event of system failure. Second to minimize possible damage position your tanks (sump, RO, salt mix) in a way that would prevent any syphon effect. If not possible use small "˜buffer' tanks. And keep in mind that Apex switches are OPEN if disconnected from control unit. Good way to test the system is to disconnect the switch box. Specific implementation is not such important as these general rules and depends on your tanks need. Many people mix ATO with kalk reactor or even use tap water...

 

[rbredding]

my fail safe is never putting more water in my ato than my sump can handle (after pump off/overflow drainage is included)..

it will drain right up to the top of the sump.. but no more..


I use a Tunze osmolator magnetic holder and two float switches connected to the Breakout Box.. the apex senses the "low float" open for 1 hour then fills to the "high float"..

the sump will hold 4 "full fills", so that is the volume that I put in the topoff container.. (lasts about 8-10 days)

 

[thefuz]

Great thread - about to get my ATO system going (buying float switches on autotopoff.com as I write this!). I've been considering going direct from my RO/DI system but seems like that might be a bad move. I have a 90 gallon as well, rbredding - what kind of container are you using?

 

[CalmSeasQuest]

Wow - Great ideas. Mine in comparison is very basic...

I use an Osmolator (primary=optical sensor, backup = mechanical float) with a fail safe provided by the Apex monitoring a conductivity probe which turns off the Osmolator and sends a text and email should salinity drop below 34ppt or rise above 35.5 (normal operating range 34.8 - 35.2.)

 

[bazineta]

Wow - Great ideas. Mine in comparison is very basic...

I use an Osmolator (primary=optical sensor, backup = mechanical float) with a fail safe provided by the Apex monitoring a conductivity probe which turns off the Osmolator and sends a text and email should salinity drop below 34ppt or rise above 35.5 (normal operating range 34.8 - 35.2.)

Exactly the same setup as mine.

I also shut off the Osmolator if the main pump is off (water change) and delay the startup of the Osmolator for 10 minutes after the main pump restarts.

 

[bamf25]

Great thread - about to get my ATO system going (buying float switches on autotopoff.com as I write this!). I've been considering going direct from my RO/DI system but seems like that might be a bad move. I have a 90 gallon as well, rbredding - what kind of container are you using?

I use a dog food storage container for mine. I got the largest that holds about 16 gallons of water, and it is also on casters so you can wheel it over to your ro/di unit for a fillup. It also comes with a lid with a foam seal on it, so not truely waterproof, but will cut down on evaporation. They come in several sizes starting about 3 gallons in size. Figured it is food safe for dog food so ok for my water.

Rember also that, the Apex reads a failed float as open (but not a stuck float so that is the backup), so set them accordingly. Usually the primary is open off, and closed on. The backup (high water) is closed on, open off.

 

[rbredding]

I'm curious.. please help me to understand why anyone would use both an osmolator AND an apex?!
unless you just had the osmolator first.. why spend that kind of money on a completely redundant controller when you can build redundancy into your apex for a fraction of the cost..

 

[CalmSeasQuest]

I'm curious.. please help me to understand why anyone would use both an osmolator AND an apex?!
unless you just had the osmolator first.. why spend that kind of money on a completely redundant controller when you can build redundancy into your apex for a fraction of the cost..

In my case, I don't trust mechanical floats ever. The osmolator provides the advantage of an optical sensor as the primary level controller with a mechanical float as a backup. The salinity probe offers an additional failsafe.

I'm sure it's possible to create the same using a break-out box and floats (although I don't think an optical sensor was an option when I put this in place) The Osmolator had a great reputation for reliability. Having read so many horror stories about catastrophic ATO failures, I found no need to try and duplicate the Tunze with floats.

 

[D-Nak]

In my case, I don't trust mechanical floats ever. The osmolator provides the advantage of an optical sensor as the primary level controller with a mechanical float as a backup. The salinity probe offers an additional failsafe.

I'm sure it's possible to create the same using a break-out box and floats (although I don't think an optical sensor was an option when I put this in place) The Osmolator had a great reputation for reliability. Having read so many horror stories about catastrophic ATO failures, I found no need to try and duplicate the Tunze with floats.

+1. Plus, for the guy with three kids and not much free time, buying an Osmolator to work with the Apex made a lot of sense. If Neptune made an ATO unit that was plug-n-play with the Apex like they do other modules, I'm sure a lot of people would buy them. Until that time, I recommend an Osmolator for those who aren't mechanically inclined or don't have time to get a breakout box, source the float switches, put it all together, then program the Apex.