kevantheman35
Member
great topic! i just added a new powerhead to my tank that i turn on for a few hours once a week. It really cleans things off and the coral and fish seem to like it
How does the sea differ from a tank?
- Thread starter Paul B
- Start date
Paul B
Premium Member
Kevin, it is a good topic because there is no ground probes, no DSBs vs SSBs vs BB vs UGF VS Paris Hilton and most of all no GFCIs.
Those things can go on forever especially because I for one disagree with almost everything
.The only person I always agree with is Waterkeeper.
Well, OK so I never agree with him, but that doesn't make him wrong.
He is always correct, (unless he is talking about DSBs then it is Science Fiction, OK not even Science Fiction. Pulp Fiction (and I don't even know what that is)
What is this thread about?
Oh yeah, How is the ocean like a tank?
I don't really know but my wife went out with her friends tonight and I just made some really good linguini with clams. Too bad I had no oysters. But I got really good olive oil, no not that junk you get in a supermarket. And really good cheese, also not the stuff from a supermarket. (great wine also, I made it two years ago)
:smokin:
Anyway being I am talking about bivalves which are from the sea, I may as well say that there is another difference from the sea to our tanks in that clams will starve in our tanks very quickly.
We have no microscope free swimming life to speak of.
Well I do but that is Long Island Sound stuff and it does not live very long, no where near long enough to feed a clam or a sea fan.
Speaking of sea fans, which by the way will not live in a tank for the above reasons, have you ever dove in a forest of sea fans? They are all positioned the same way, perpendicular to the flow. And the flow where those fans live is usually much too strong for us to try to swim against. And while you are hanging on to a rock amid a sea of sea fans you will be amazed by the amount of life flying past those tiny polyps on those sea fans. It always awes me to watch how they vibrate due to the current and they still manage to catch enough food.
Impossable to supply in a tank. No way, no how.
I hatch brine shrimp every day, just a pittence of the life in the sea, almost not worth it if I were trying to keep clams or sea fans.
Not even the correct nutrition.
Bacteria, lets talk about bacteria. I know I beat that topic to death but I really feel there would be almost no tank crashes and no nitrate if we harvested bacteria from the sea.
(If you have one of those unmentionable substraits, you are on your own)
People don't think about bacteria because we can't see it, but they are the sole thing keeping your tank alive, or killing it.
If we see a thriving, pristine coral reef, bacteria has a lot to do with it. If we see a polluted, stinking harbor, bacteria is also the cause. The correct bacteria in the correct numbers is the secret to this hobby. Keeping the correct bacteria hinges on giving them a place to hang out where they are comfortable enough to re produce faster than undesirable bacteria.
But even the correct bacteria will not help us forever. We need to add them occasionally to give them an advantage over the not so welcome bacteria which will eventually colonize the entire tank pushing out the good bacteria. It's why you are changing water to eliminate nitrate. The bacteria should do that for you.
No, the bacteria will not help you change water, eliminate nitrates. Follow along.
OK now this is all my opinion and I am older than almost all of you so humor me. For any negative reactions from this, send a self addressed stamped envelope to Waterkeeper, care of this forum.
He is younger than me and probably cares more
"Umm fish?"
Premium Member
You know, Paul. I think you're probably selling your tank short on the plankton production. Heck, I'd bet that your algae scrubber produces a ton of plankton. You have tangs, right? They only digest about 40% of their food. The rest of that is prime, partially digested food. Not that I want to eat any, but I'm sure the filter feeders enjoy it.
***admission ahead***
Granted that I feed too much ***end of admission***, but my tanks tend to produce tons of plankton. Certainly not ocean level, but still. The nutrients from the food gives my water a constant slight phyto green cast. You can't really see it from straight on, but you can certainly see how green it is from the side long view. I pulled out a amphipod molt that was floating around the other day and stuck it under the scope: ciliates at roughly 100/mL, tiny worms of all kinds, etc. I have fish spawning nightly, putting eggs and/or hatched larvae into the water column. I find worm larvae in the water column, etc.
The problem isn't that we can't produce plankton. The problem is that our tanks are really rough on plankton in the calanoid copepod vein that are a little larger and spend all their time in the water column. Newly-hatched BBS is really big as far as plankton goes and our filtration systems aren't designed to keep animals of that size and lifestyle going.
Not that I mind too much. To be really successful with that sort of plankton our tanks would pretty much have to spend much of the time at pea-soup green. And that job is much better solved in the culture containers.
BTW, I have to disagree with you on the impossible to feed enough in a reef tank thing. I'm a firm believer that animals need to eat and that it's my job to look after the nutrients. I shouldn't be keeping the nutrients low at the expense of the health of the animals in the tank. And oddly enough, the tanks have always seemed to eventually come to terms with the food I add. I ramp up my feeding slowly at first and then leave it at a stable (high) level. And populations of animals seem to grow with the increased feeding and will take care of the leftovers. Eventually, it seems to come to some sort of dynamic equilibrium. Occasionally it gets off and I have to do a large water change, but it seems to work. It means a lot of effort scraping the glass, though.
You're probably right about the bacteria thing. You should sell the idea to Caribsea, though. Can't you see it? It's their live sand in a bag idea, but they don't even have to sell the sand. Perfect: This bag is full of great bacteria for your tank. Why yes, it's been transported in the back of 140 degree trucks. Yes, it's been sitting on the shelf for six months with no addition of food for them to eat. Is that a problem? No, because the bag is "breathable." That'll be $30 per bag, please. You need 14 bags for your tank. Sigh.
Aside from those who would capitalize in what I consider shifty ways from your theory, I do think you've got something there.
***admission ahead***
Granted that I feed too much ***end of admission***, but my tanks tend to produce tons of plankton. Certainly not ocean level, but still. The nutrients from the food gives my water a constant slight phyto green cast. You can't really see it from straight on, but you can certainly see how green it is from the side long view. I pulled out a amphipod molt that was floating around the other day and stuck it under the scope: ciliates at roughly 100/mL, tiny worms of all kinds, etc. I have fish spawning nightly, putting eggs and/or hatched larvae into the water column. I find worm larvae in the water column, etc.
The problem isn't that we can't produce plankton. The problem is that our tanks are really rough on plankton in the calanoid copepod vein that are a little larger and spend all their time in the water column. Newly-hatched BBS is really big as far as plankton goes and our filtration systems aren't designed to keep animals of that size and lifestyle going.
Not that I mind too much. To be really successful with that sort of plankton our tanks would pretty much have to spend much of the time at pea-soup green. And that job is much better solved in the culture containers.
BTW, I have to disagree with you on the impossible to feed enough in a reef tank thing. I'm a firm believer that animals need to eat and that it's my job to look after the nutrients. I shouldn't be keeping the nutrients low at the expense of the health of the animals in the tank. And oddly enough, the tanks have always seemed to eventually come to terms with the food I add. I ramp up my feeding slowly at first and then leave it at a stable (high) level. And populations of animals seem to grow with the increased feeding and will take care of the leftovers. Eventually, it seems to come to some sort of dynamic equilibrium. Occasionally it gets off and I have to do a large water change, but it seems to work. It means a lot of effort scraping the glass, though.
You're probably right about the bacteria thing. You should sell the idea to Caribsea, though. Can't you see it? It's their live sand in a bag idea, but they don't even have to sell the sand. Perfect: This bag is full of great bacteria for your tank. Why yes, it's been transported in the back of 140 degree trucks. Yes, it's been sitting on the shelf for six months with no addition of food for them to eat. Is that a problem? No, because the bag is "breathable." That'll be $30 per bag, please. You need 14 bags for your tank. Sigh.
Aside from those who would capitalize in what I consider shifty ways from your theory, I do think you've got something there.
Paul B
Premium Member
Umm Old buddy, I like it when someone disagrees with me, it means someone is awake and reading this stuff.
But I didn't say it is impossable to feed a reef enough, I said it is impossable to feed a sea fan enough. You have enough plankton in your tank to feed one for five minutes and thats about it.
Those things are loaded with polyps and they live where water rushes past them a few miles an hour, much faster than I could swim. I know as I have hung out with them. They eat an enormous amount of tiny food which is constantly being supplied by the currects. Most (but not all) plankton is fed from the sun, the rest eats smaller plankton which eats smaller plankton which eats bacteria and detritus. Some of their nutrition comes from run off from land.
(there is plankton which we think of as most tiny organisms which are animal based and we have diatoms which are plant in definition. I am grouping them all together here because I am talking about food for sea fans)
"Umm fish?"
Premium Member
I'm with you on the flow thing. I can also go with you on whether or not my tank could manufacture the amount of plankton of the right size to feed a sea fan. (I also get the food web concept. 
) But why are you limiting the feeding of sea fans to only the live food that my tank can manufacture?
Oh I get it. You are just talking about differences between tank and sea, not about whether a sea fan could ever be kept. Never mind. Oops.
BTW, latest that I've heard is that single-cell creatures are neither plants nor animals. They are just single-cell creatures. I guess it was too embarrassing to have so many of the phytoplankton primary producers that moved around and acted like "animal" cells.
) But why are you limiting the feeding of sea fans to only the live food that my tank can manufacture?Oh I get it. You are just talking about differences between tank and sea, not about whether a sea fan could ever be kept. Never mind. Oops.
BTW, latest that I've heard is that single-cell creatures are neither plants nor animals. They are just single-cell creatures. I guess it was too embarrassing to have so many of the phytoplankton primary producers that moved around and acted like "animal" cells.
I've enjoyed reading this thread, and am glad the topic was brought up. I have a question:
In that our tanks are NOT the ocean, how sensible is it to attempt to replicate as much as we can about the ocean?
For the sake of this question, I am curious about water temperature. I have heard it said that, of the reefs of the earth, the average water temperature is 82 degrees. So some advocate keeping a tank at 82 degrees, reasoning that one should strive to keep one's animals in a habitat as close as possible to its native haunts.
On the other hand, temperature is related to many things, including the water's oxygen carrying capacity, pH, and its salinity. It is also much more important to these organisms that have little control of their own internal temperatures than simply comfort; I have read that temperature can have effect on metabolism and other life processes.
So, higher temps = less oxygen in the water and increased metabolism = greater oxygen demand (right?) If we agree that our tanks are already overstocked (by volume, as compared to the ocean), then certainly they are overstocked in regard to surface area (which is key in oxygen exchange.) As previously mentioned, our tanks do not come close to the ocean in regard to water movement (which also effects surface area and thus oxygen exchange.)
If our tanks are deficient in so many of the things that assist with oxygenation, is it wise to recommend that the ideal saltwater tank temperature is the same as the "average reef temperature"?
I wonder if the information on the extremes of the reef isn't a bit more useful as guidelines for aquarists than hard-set rules based on any of the averages. I certainly do not have the years of experience that some of you have, but I do think about these things.
Since I know that I can not replicate the ocean or any part of it, my goal is to create a habitat for my saltwater creatures that provides them with suitable nutritious food; suitable water with parameters far from any extreme; and suitable shelter and tankmates so that each is spared from as much stress as possible. In doing so, I hope that I am giving them the best life that I can give them.
Hopefully, mankind will never be required to truly attempt to recreate the oceans artificially....
In that our tanks are NOT the ocean, how sensible is it to attempt to replicate as much as we can about the ocean?
For the sake of this question, I am curious about water temperature. I have heard it said that, of the reefs of the earth, the average water temperature is 82 degrees. So some advocate keeping a tank at 82 degrees, reasoning that one should strive to keep one's animals in a habitat as close as possible to its native haunts.
On the other hand, temperature is related to many things, including the water's oxygen carrying capacity, pH, and its salinity. It is also much more important to these organisms that have little control of their own internal temperatures than simply comfort; I have read that temperature can have effect on metabolism and other life processes.
So, higher temps = less oxygen in the water and increased metabolism = greater oxygen demand (right?
) If we agree that our tanks are already overstocked (by volume, as compared to the ocean), then certainly they are overstocked in regard to surface area (which is key in oxygen exchange.) As previously mentioned, our tanks do not come close to the ocean in regard to water movement (which also effects surface area and thus oxygen exchange.) If our tanks are deficient in so many of the things that assist with oxygenation, is it wise to recommend that the ideal saltwater tank temperature is the same as the "average reef temperature"?
I wonder if the information on the extremes of the reef isn't a bit more useful as guidelines for aquarists than hard-set rules based on any of the averages. I certainly do not have the years of experience that some of you have, but I do think about these things.
Since I know that I can not replicate the ocean or any part of it, my goal is to create a habitat for my saltwater creatures that provides them with suitable nutritious food; suitable water with parameters far from any extreme; and suitable shelter and tankmates so that each is spared from as much stress as possible. In doing so, I hope that I am giving them the best life that I can give them.
Hopefully, mankind will never be required to truly attempt to recreate the oceans artificially....
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"Umm fish?"
Premium Member
Well, remember that 82 is an average of all times and seasons, meaning the temps bounce around quite a bit. It's not uncommon to see reefs at 88, though I certainly wouldn't advise you to try to duplicate that. From what I can tell, as long as you aren't pushing the high or low ends of the spectrum, it's not so much the specific temp that the animals adjust to, but rather the daily variation. That is, the animals can handle a daily five degree (for example) temperature variation as long as they are introduced to it slowly. It's when your chiller gives out and the animals get a five degree variation suddenly _that they aren't expecting and aren't adjusted to_ is when you get problems.
Paul B
Premium Member
Actually, my tank is about 88 right now. I would like it cooler but it has been going to that temp for the 40 years it has been there so I would assume it is not as bad as some think.
I do have a fan over the tank and at night when the lights go off it goes to about 83 or so. Fish are not like us, we would croak if our internal body temperature went up only 4 or 5 degrees but fish just slow down. The area where I live in New York has an air temp difference of 100 degrees during the year. The sea goes from about 38 degrees to what it is now which is the high seventees. The fish handle it quite well, they just hardly eat in the winter. You can keep lobsters and crabs on ice for almost a week with no water. Their metabolism just slows.
The fish on NY waters do die in masse when it gets too hot thiough, not from the heat but from the lack of oxygen. In my tank, I have the powerheads set to disturb the surface of the water to increase the oxygen exchange and even more importantly to help remove co2.
I do try to replicate the sea as much as I can. I feed real seafood from the sea like salmon eggs as much as I can. I also use some NSW and collect amphipods, worms and bacteria from the sea.
My tank is not very sterile. I don't like to see a sterily, too clean looking tank, that is IMO not healthy at all. I also like to see a little algae as to me, that is an indicator of health.
So Elysia, I do try to replicate the ocean as well as I can without actually moving right on the sea.
I have spent almost 300 hours underwater locally and in the tropics which is why my tank is aquascaped with help from my observations.
And Elysia I have spawned and raised about 100 Elysia Crispata lettuce slugs
Only for Elysia http://www.breedersregistry.org/Articles/baldassano2004/SolarPoweredSlug.htm
I do have a fan over the tank and at night when the lights go off it goes to about 83 or so. Fish are not like us, we would croak if our internal body temperature went up only 4 or 5 degrees but fish just slow down. The area where I live in New York has an air temp difference of 100 degrees during the year. The sea goes from about 38 degrees to what it is now which is the high seventees. The fish handle it quite well, they just hardly eat in the winter. You can keep lobsters and crabs on ice for almost a week with no water. Their metabolism just slows.
The fish on NY waters do die in masse when it gets too hot thiough, not from the heat but from the lack of oxygen. In my tank, I have the powerheads set to disturb the surface of the water to increase the oxygen exchange and even more importantly to help remove co2.
I do try to replicate the sea as much as I can. I feed real seafood from the sea like salmon eggs as much as I can. I also use some NSW and collect amphipods, worms and bacteria from the sea.
My tank is not very sterile. I don't like to see a sterily, too clean looking tank, that is IMO not healthy at all. I also like to see a little algae as to me, that is an indicator of health.
So Elysia, I do try to replicate the ocean as well as I can without actually moving right on the sea.
I have spent almost 300 hours underwater locally and in the tropics which is why my tank is aquascaped with help from my observations.
And Elysia I have spawned and raised about 100 Elysia Crispata lettuce slugs
Only for Elysia http://www.breedersregistry.org/Articles/baldassano2004/SolarPoweredSlug.htm
Thanks for the link, Paul. Lettuce slugs are probably my favorite marine animal. You probably did not see any reduction to your hair algae because the slugs just suck the contents of the algae out, leaving a "husk" of the algae behind.
Paul, do you do anything to "acclimate" your bacteria to the higher temperatures of your tank? Or do you collect only in the summer, when the difference between NY and your tank is not so great?
Paul, do you do anything to "acclimate" your bacteria to the higher temperatures of your tank? Or do you collect only in the summer, when the difference between NY and your tank is not so great?
Paul B
Premium Member
Elysia, actually lettuce slugs do not eat or suck anything out of hair algae, only bryopsis. I did an experiment where I put 25 of the slugs in a small container with hair algae and in a few weeks, they did nothing to the algae at all but put in some bryopsis and they go to town turning it into snot in no time.
As for the bacteria, I just dump it in. I don't think it is too easy to kill bacteria with the temps our tanks run at. The water in tide pools where I sometimes collect run into the 90's.
I also collect amphipods in the winter under the ice along with associated bacteria. I don't know the actual health of the bacteria but I still use it.
Have a great day
Paul
As for the bacteria, I just dump it in. I don't think it is too easy to kill bacteria with the temps our tanks run at. The water in tide pools where I sometimes collect run into the 90's.
I also collect amphipods in the winter under the ice along with associated bacteria. I don't know the actual health of the bacteria but I still use it.
Have a great day
Paul
JohnM99
Premium Member
Very interesting thread. Even the giant tank at Dubai is not the same as the sea. I live about 800 m from the ocean - if I actually had waterfront, I would LOVE to sneak a pair of 6" pipes underground and out into the ocean, put in a giant pump, and blast fresh sea water through a big tanks, with local critters in it. Even that would be completely artificial - but pretty interesting.
Other "tanks" I have seen that are really neat are semi fenced in enclosures in bays or beaches - but then you have weird waste buildup issues, and sea lice buildup etc.
On the other hand - as was pointed out, the sea isn't just one big place. The water molecules in one place don't actually move as far as you might think over a 10 year period. Many animals don't move very far. One little puffer fish I met in Hawaii moved maybe 5 meters his whole life - a lady I met who lived there and swam there every day had been watching him for 11 years.
Reefs are completely different from most of the ocean, with a completely different density of life.
Still - good luck trying to feed gorgonians properly. Or even a filefish. Only really dedicated (?obsessed) guys like ummm fish have any kind of success with that.
I find the more I learn about my tanks, the more I appreciate when I dive, and vice versa. I am no fun to dive with any more because I like to just stay in one spot for a long time and watch. If you just sit and watch a barrel sponge or brain coral formation for 20 minutes, it is amazing what goes on there.
Other "tanks" I have seen that are really neat are semi fenced in enclosures in bays or beaches - but then you have weird waste buildup issues, and sea lice buildup etc.
On the other hand - as was pointed out, the sea isn't just one big place. The water molecules in one place don't actually move as far as you might think over a 10 year period. Many animals don't move very far. One little puffer fish I met in Hawaii moved maybe 5 meters his whole life - a lady I met who lived there and swam there every day had been watching him for 11 years.
Reefs are completely different from most of the ocean, with a completely different density of life.
Still - good luck trying to feed gorgonians properly. Or even a filefish. Only really dedicated (?obsessed) guys like ummm fish have any kind of success with that.
I find the more I learn about my tanks, the more I appreciate when I dive, and vice versa. I am no fun to dive with any more because I like to just stay in one spot for a long time and watch. If you just sit and watch a barrel sponge or brain coral formation for 20 minutes, it is amazing what goes on there.
Paul B
Premium Member
Thats the way I dive. I am not a resort diver, I have my own equipment and boat and like to do my own thing. When we go to the tropics almost eyery year we like to hire a guide and go to some obscure place where there are no other divers. Thats where you find the interesting stuff.
Here in NY we dove for lobsters for many years. There was one very large lobster that was too big to get into a lobster trap so he lived his life about 100 yards from shore next to a day marker off the home owned by Arizona Ice Tea, (which is the largest house I have ever seen)
Every time I would go to that place to dive, I would spear a flounder to feed to him. I did that for years and I think he appreciated it but he was always in the same hole in the rocks.
That place was about a quarter mile from here which is Execution Lighthouse. The rocks in the Sound look the same as this underwater and there are plenty of lobster holes. Unfortunately most of the lobsters died a few years ago from unknown causes
bergzy
New member
i am always constantly amazed that i/we are able to keep the animals (corals, fish, inverts etc) in a closed system environment thousands of miles from their indigenous home.
artificial lighting, artificial salt water (for most of us), feeding dead food (for most of us), artificial water movement, artificial temperature stabilization, artificial ionic supplementation (alk, mg, ca etc) etc etc etc...it is almost inconceivable that we can even keep the simplest of creatures alive.
yet, with somewhat attentive dedication, not only are we able (for most of us) to keep the animals at a survival level...we can can actually have them thrive, grow and spawn. our aquarium 'systems' are incredibly crude at best: hopelessly overcrowded, sometimes populated with non native species of fish, corals etc...yet, for the most part, almost always get along.
we will always try to replicate mother nature...key word being 'try'. i doubt that we will ever get there with pure human efforts.
artificial lighting, artificial salt water (for most of us), feeding dead food (for most of us), artificial water movement, artificial temperature stabilization, artificial ionic supplementation (alk, mg, ca etc) etc etc etc...it is almost inconceivable that we can even keep the simplest of creatures alive.
yet, with somewhat attentive dedication, not only are we able (for most of us) to keep the animals at a survival level...we can can actually have them thrive, grow and spawn. our aquarium 'systems' are incredibly crude at best: hopelessly overcrowded, sometimes populated with non native species of fish, corals etc...yet, for the most part, almost always get along.
we will always try to replicate mother nature...key word being 'try'. i doubt that we will ever get there with pure human efforts.
Paul B
Premium Member
While it is true we can keep these things and even spawn a few, we are lacking in keeping them long enough to be considered a normal lifespan. Especially corals some of which live forever.
I am sure that eventually we will overcome all of the obstacles we seem to encounter along the way.
The food we have available is woefully lacking in what the animals need. Many people just say to feed a variety but that is not the answer. Many fish just eat one or two items and by adding squid, clams and sponge to the diet may not help the animal at all. I am very surprised that we don't have available tiny whole fish which is the diet of most fish. It is a complete diet for many fish and nothing else need to be added. Everything a fish needs is in a fish. I have contacted "Ocean Nutrition" about this and they were sending a representative but I never saw him. I even have a supply of tiny makeral from Asia that are less than a quarter inch long. Excellent food.
I am sure that eventually we will overcome all of the obstacles we seem to encounter along the way.
The food we have available is woefully lacking in what the animals need. Many people just say to feed a variety but that is not the answer. Many fish just eat one or two items and by adding squid, clams and sponge to the diet may not help the animal at all. I am very surprised that we don't have available tiny whole fish which is the diet of most fish. It is a complete diet for many fish and nothing else need to be added. Everything a fish needs is in a fish. I have contacted "Ocean Nutrition" about this and they were sending a representative but I never saw him. I even have a supply of tiny makeral from Asia that are less than a quarter inch long. Excellent food.
"Umm fish?"
Premium Member
I still think you are absolutely correct, Paul, but still aiming for too big a food. I'm constantly trying to find smaller foods. I even blender the mysis until they are as close to liquid as I can get. I freeze the foods into sizes that my fish can take, but any leftovers thaw quickly into sizes that work for all of the small filter feeders and that the biofilter can break down very quickly.
"Umm fish?"
Premium Member
Well, yeah. No argument there.
