How long does Ich survive in hypo?

[tassod]

Ok here is my history. I've got a 75g cycled QT and currently have 7 fish in it. I started adding fish to this tank about 6 weeks ago. First 5 fish where pretty much added within 1 week of each other and I observed them for about another week. These first 5 fish are :

Powder blue
Naso tang
Filefish
Flame Angel
Blue hippo tang

I then started Hyposalinity on these fish as I started noticing white dots on the blue hippo tang and also on the powder blue. The hypo started on 4/29

Within about a week the dots on the hippo and PB disappeared and have not returned. On 5/17 I added 2 more fish to the QT, a Moorish Idol and a Purple tang. Within the last week, the purple tang has come up with what looks like Ich. He just looks like he was sprinkled with salt. Here is a pick of him:



As the title states on this thread, how long does it take for the Ich to die and disappear? If its not going away, could it be something else? As far as the fish behavior, he is acting as if nothing is going on. He eats like a pig, swims fine and is doing great. All the other fish are fine as well and all are eating great. I've also done a few PraziPro treatments since i started the hypo treatment.

I just started running a 25w UV on the system as well a few days ago and I also run carbon (not during the prazi pro treatments obviously). I also have an air-stone in the system for O2. This may sound like a dumb question but I started noticing this on the purple tang shortly after i started running the air stone. Could it be all the micro-bubbles that are sticking on him? I did turn off the air-stone for a few hours yesterday but that didn't change anything.

 

[Reefahholic]

I took mine about 2 weeks to go away in hypo.

You need to do TT because it's been noted that some ICH strains are resistant to hyposalinity.


TT= 12 DAYS = DONE = AFFECTIVE

 

[snorvich]

Well I suggest reading the stickies on ich. Using hypo is the most difficult protocol of those available and it is one that few people execute successfully because measuring SG may be accurate or not, maintaining it is difficult, and if not where it should be at 1.008/1.009, will be either irrelevant or bad for the fish. Ich symptoms come and go. So lack of visible ich symptoms is not especially meaningful. Whenever you had a fish to QT, the clock restarts.

 

[snorvich]

Also, remember that only the tomites are affected by hyposalinity (although there is at least one species of cryptocaryon irritans that is hyposaline resistant) so they would have to emerge before they would be killed.

 

[tassod]

Well I suggest reading the stickies on ich. Using hypo is the most difficult protocol of those available and it is one that few people execute successfully because measuring SG may be accurate or not, maintaining it is difficult, and if not where it should be at 1.008/1.009, will be either irrelevant or bad for the fish. Ich symptoms come and go. So lack of visible ich symptoms is not especially meaningful. Whenever you had a fish to QT, the clock restarts.

I'm measuring SG using both a digital and regular refractometer. I also use an ATO which has kept my SG at 1.008 consistently throughout. Was also under the impression that hypo is the least stressfull method to use on fish.

If this is the case though on what you are saying about the hypo method, should it not be removed from being one of the standard protocols? I now feel like i've been wasting my time using this method.

 

[Spar]

Also, remember that only the tomites are affected by hyposalinity (although there is at least one species of cryptocaryon irritans that is hyposaline resistant) so they would have to emerge before they would be killed.

curious, how soon after the tomite (cyst) forming does the hypo burst it? i didn't realize either that the actual free-swimming stages wouldn't be affected by hypo? i don't use hypo anymore, but good education nonetheless :reading:

 

[snorvich]

I'm measuring SG using both a digital and regular refractometer. I also use an ATO which has kept my SG at 1.008 consistently throughout. Was also under the impression that hypo is the least stressfull method to use on fish.

If this is the case though on what you are saying about the hypo method, should it not be removed from being one of the standard protocols? I now feel like i've been wasting my time using this method.

In order of preference, I recommend:

+ tank transfer followed by 4 weeks observation
+ copper followed by 4 weeks observation
+ CP
+ hyposalinity

Hyposalinity in the vast majority of cases can work. However most people do not execute it accurately enough or long enough. Know, however, that measuring SG with anything has a standard error of the mean (translated that means the result is accurate plus or minus a test measurement accuracy standard deviation) which is normally supplied with whatever you purchase. What I see as problematic in your protocol is adding new fish in the middle of quarantine.

 

[Spar]

I'm measuring SG using both a digital and regular refractometer. I also use an ATO which has kept my SG at 1.008 consistently throughout. Was also under the impression that hypo is the least stressfull method to use on fish.

If this is the case though on what you are saying about the hypo method, should it not be removed from being one of the standard protocols? I now feel like i've been wasting my time using this method.

"least stressful" is often argued here. what you will find on either side of the arguments is that (1) it is the least stressful DURING the 1.008 period, however (2) it is the most stressful when you start raising the salinity. if you go really slow, this is negated, but rarely do people go slow. TTM is almost no stress at all on the fish and is much more effective, so IMO TTM wins out.

Hypo has pretty much been removed as a choice in most peoples minds. the hypo-resistant strains are the main reason. copper often leads to hlle or other issues. leaving TTM. you will however get a lot of debates here.

 

[snorvich]

And as I said in the sticky:

Most reports of failure of hypo I suspect result in less than exacting application of this treatment. It is precise, it requires a lot of filter changing, and it requires you to keep that water exactly at that fill line: you're on a knife's edge between what the fish can tolerate nicely, and what will kill the ich parasite. You need to stay right on that line.

 

[snorvich]

curious, how soon after the tomite (cyst) forming does the hypo burst it? i didn't realize either that the actual free-swimming stages wouldn't be affected by hypo? i don't use hypo anymore, but good education nonetheless :reading:

At the risk of providing too much detail:

Once a trophont leaves the fish, it becomes a protomont. During this phase, it loses its cilia, flattens its surfaces, and moves onto a substrate for about 2"“18 hours. After this stage, the organism stops, sticks to the surface, and encysts, whereupon it becomes a tomont. The cyst hardens in about 8"“12 hours (Colorni 1985). Before the cyst forms, the protomont may be susceptible to some treatments for a short period of time. However, once the cyst has formed and hardened around the tomont, it has greater protection against common treatments. There is speculation that during this vulnerable time, CP, hyposalinity, and copper can affect it.

These tomites are released as theronts, the free-swimming infective stage which is also the stage most susceptible to most salinity or chemical treatments. which, of course we all know since hyposaline and chemical treatments address it. The problem, of course, is the time before they are released is highly variable depending on species of cryptocaryon irritants and other factors.

The time required for theront development varies. In one study (Colorni and Burgess 1997), theronts emerged from a group of tomonts sometime between 3 and 72 days, with most released from 4 to 8 days after tomont formation. In another study (Diggles and Lester 1996c ), tomite development and theront release occurred, on average, between 5 and 12.1 days after tomont formation, depending upon strain and temperature. There was no correlation between tomont size and theront release.


Theronts are oval to pear-shaped and motile; they actively seek fish. The theront is the most exposed, unprotected life stage and therefore the most logical target for treatment. Once the theront locates a host, it invades its skin within 5 minutes (Dickerson 2006). During gill invasion, the parasite becomes enclosed by a thin layer of cells within 20"“30 minutes (Dickerson 2006). Theronts of one strain were 20"“30 x 50"“70 µm (Colorni 1985), but size will vary depending upon strain, host species, and temperature. The theront's infectivity is highest early in its life. By 6"“8 hours after it leaves the cyst, its infectivity is greatly reduced (Burgess 1992; Yoshinaga and Dickerson 1994; Colorni and Burgess 1997; Dan et al. 2009), although a non-infective theront may still be able to move for up to 48 hours.

 

[snorvich]

curious, how soon after the tomite (cyst) forming does the hypo burst it? i didn't realize either that the actual free-swimming stages wouldn't be affected by hypo? i don't use hypo anymore, but good education nonetheless :reading:

No, the free swimming stages are the most vulnerable to chemical or hyposalinity treatment. But there is that one window described above before encysting where some treatments are effective.

 

[tassod]

Guys, this is all great info and I appreciate everyone's input on ich and hypo. As for the TT method, i'm assuming just like hypo, it is only effective on ich and nothing else. Having said this and going back to my purple tang....how do i know if this is ich he has or not? Again, only symptom is what you see in the picture and nothing else. He eats, swims and acts normally and does not scratch anywhere on anything.

I may consider going the CP route as this can eradicate more than just ich. I'm going to slowly start raising salinity over the next several weeks to get to my DT's SG and make a decision from there. Biggest thing will be i guess to find CP.

 

[HumbleFish]

I may consider going the CP route as this can eradicate more than just ich. I'm going to slowly start raising salinity over the next several weeks to get to my DT's SG and make a decision from there. Biggest thing will be i guess to find CP.

Obtaining 99% pure pharmaceutical grade CP is a big problem (and expensive to boot). The only way to be sure is obtaining a script from a vet which can then be filled by a local pharmacy. I know someone trying to buy some from a compounding pharmacy right now, and it looks like it's going to cost him $6/gram!

You can get it cheaper from "some guy" on ebay and even some online places... but what are you really getting??

BTW; this thread may interest you: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2136214

 

[tassod]

Obtaining 99% pure pharmaceutical grade CP is a big problem (and expensive to boot). The only way to be sure is obtaining a script from a vet which can then be filled by a local pharmacy. I know someone trying to buy some from a compounding pharmacy right now, and it looks like it's going to cost him $6/gram!

You can get it cheaper from "some guy" on ebay and even some online places... but what are you really getting??

BTW; this thread may interest you: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2136214

Thanks for the link to that thread which i've already read...good info there. I'm going to talk to my dog's vet and see what i can get...If i do obtain it, i will start a thread to post results.

 

[MikeinCt001]

Can you add new fish to a tank that is all ready in a state of hypo? I thought the salt level had to be brought down slowly ( not as slow as raising the salt level, but still pretty slow ). I for one would be nervous having that many fish in quarantine all at once. You could have 5 healthy fish with no problems, and then add one more that brings some disease with it, and all a sudden you have a whole tank of possibly sick fish you have to treat. Also I am jealous you have more fish in quarantine then I have in my DT. Lol

 

[tassod]

The 2 new fish i acclimated to the hypo SG level over an 8 hour period and they were just fine. Agreed, that is a chance I took with adding fish to an existing QT. I've also got more fish in my QT than my DT.

Looks like I'm going to be using the TT method next. I've been running hypo now for 4 weeks and the purple tang continues to look more or less the same but not worse. He's still eating and acting fine though. I'm starting to bring the SG up over the next week or 2.

 

[ahmed_iAM]

Just use copper if your intimated by hypo. Or use both. Make sure the fish aren't stressed. The stressed fish could be vulnerable to other diseases after you finish treatment.

 

[tthouston]

No, the free swimming stages are the most vulnerable to chemical or hyposalinity treatment. But there is that one window described above before encysting where some treatments are effective.

I am very interesting with this question and trying to follow the thread to find out the answer, but it is still not clear for me yet!
How long Tomites die at hyposalinity water? Right away from Tomonts to Tomites? or couple hours? Because the fish still in the tank at this time for treatment. Is Theronts (Tomites become Theronts) die after attach the fish at 1.008 SG? Is anyone know how long Tomites die at this stages?
Thanks

 

[tthouston]

Search from other site, Tomites will die at 1.008 - 1.009 SG within 24 hours. Hypo treatment plus transfer metal will reduce to 14 days from 40 days.

 

[ThRoewer]

Hyposalinity:
I did hypo without having issues to keep the salinity stable. At those low salinities evaporation doesn't have the same significance as at normal salinity.
A cover glass and twice daily salinity checks and refills (morning & evening) will keep it easily well within the therapeutic range.
All the statements that the salinity is hard to maintain at the right level is likely based on experience with regular salinity levels where even small evaporation causes significant changes.

I had some bacteria bloom issues since the skimmer wouldn't work well enough at low salinity.

Ich went away within 3 to 5 days and didn't return.

The low salinity prevents the protomonts from encysting and therefore interrupts the cycle (at the same point as TTM) - it also kills hatching tomites before they can reinfect a fish.

A good tank cleaning (or tank transfer) after one or two weeks is recommended. as an additional safety measure.

I added a new fish in the middle of treatment, not because it was sick, but because I couldn't add it to the infected DT. No problems with that as long as you keep up the treatment for at least another two weeks.

CP:
No need to look on ebay or shell out insane amounts of money. Amazon has it: New Life Spectrum Ick-Shield Powder.
I would prefer it or hypo over copper any day as copper is an immunosuppressant toxin that often causes secondary issues like for example Lymphocystis outbreaks.

CP has also the added benefit that it is the ideal treatment against Amyloodinium. So if you aren't totally sure if your fish have ich or velvet it's the ideal choice.
It also seems to kill Uronema.

The main issue with CP is that some fish families (Syngnathidae & Labridae) won't tolerate it and may die. Those are usually better served with TTM or hypo.

TTM is ideal as a prophylactic treatment for new fish or to treat small numbers of fish or primarily small fish, but it is in general not ideal if you have to treat larger numbers of bigger or aggressive fish.