How long out of water untll ich infested rock is safe

[inigomontoya]

First off I have a FOWLR. If you take your fish out of the DT and put them in a hospital tank with cupramine and then remove all water from the DT (I would assume that you would need to remove the sand too due to die off) how long would it take to ensure that the ick has died? This is with the rock still in place but no water.
My rockscape is impractical to remove but I am thinking rather than a month of hypo for the DT that I should just remove the water period and make sure- I just can't take the rocks out and bleach them or anything.
This is also with the realization that I will have a solid cycle when I refill again.

 

[sandwi54]

Instead of killing all the beneficial bacteria and fauna in the rocks, why not just fallow the tank for 10 weeks?

 

[HumbleFish]

Instead of killing all the beneficial bacteria and fauna in the rocks, why not just fallow the tank for 10 weeks?

+1 You'd have to remove all the sand, and the rock would have to be bone dry for at least a couple of weeks to be reasonably sure of eradication.

 

[inigomontoya]

Thanks, long story, but short version is that the live rock is pretty bare. I started the tank with dead rock and seeded with a live rock. Shortly after tank was cycled and running it was hit with ich (yes, I do QT and apparently didn't run through cupramine long enough).
I then did hypo in the DT. After that and a week after raising the salinity, the fish were all wiped out in a few days by what looked like velvet. There had been no additions for over a month so it was confusing and frustrating:headwallblue:

So... I went fallow for 12 weeks, which ended a couple weeks ago at which I put in some fish which had been in QT for 5 weeks. I had run two QT tanks and only ran cupramine in one (did prazi in both) as only those fish had shown any sign of ich and I am stocking butterflies and angels who are sensitive to cupramine.

And, here we are, as I saw my declivis and goldflake with ich spots last night. I am weighing my options for a drastic move to try and ensure this goes away.

 

[inigomontoya]

+1 You'd have to remove all the sand, and the rock would have to be bone dry for at least a couple of weeks to be reasonably sure of eradication.

This is what I expected, but was hoping it might be shorter. As mentioned I have done hypo with fish before, but at 400+ gallons with the sump, that is a lot of water changes with RODI (think 10 last time).

Wife suggested just draining all the water and starting over- which has its appeal. I do have a trap and can remove and hospital the current fish, but don't want to do it for 3 months (again) as it's just too many big fish in tanks that aren't that big (a 40g and 55g). Don't want the water quality in the hospital/QT to lead to any losses.
- may even remove fish and snails and do an extreme hypo where I totally drain it and fill with freshwater for 35 days (basically "0" sg), totally drain and re-fill with new SW. This at least wouldn't smell like a totally empty tank and I could salvage the sand.

 

[HumbleFish]

So... I went fallow for 12 weeks, which ended a couple weeks ago at which I put in some fish which had been in QT for 5 weeks. I had run two QT tanks and only ran cupramine in one (did prazi in both) as only those fish had shown any sign of ich and I am stocking butterflies and angels who are sensitive to cupramine.

Just so I'm understanding correctly...

Were some of the fish taken from your DT not treated with Cupramine?

Or were some newly purchased fish not treated with Cupramine?

 

[inigomontoya]

Sorry if unclear, the velvet wiped out all my fish so, while DT was fallow, I did have new fish in two QT's. One of those didn't get treated with cupramine as there was no sign during a 5 week period.
--granted, that might be it right there, but I went over them pretty thoroughly while in QT. Seems unlikely, but also seems unlikely that something survived a 12 week fallow- which is why I gave the extra two weeks. Hate to give them chemo if they don't have cancer since I have had losses which seem just related to acclimation/QT/cupramine.

 

[HumbleFish]

Sorry if unclear, the velvet wiped out all my fish so, while DT was fallow, I did have new fish in two QT's. One of those didn't get treated with cupramine as there was no sign during a 5 week period.

But all the others did show signs of ich and were treated? Did all the fish come from the same source? What kind of fish was it that didn't show signs of ich?

Trust me, I'm going somewhere with all this. Just trying to get all my facts straight before I offer an opinion on what happened.

 

[sandwi54]

I hate to break this myth to you, but angels/puffers/butterflyfish are NOT more sensitive to cupramine than other fish, if they are in good health to begin with. I must have treated hundreds of fish with cupramine, and I never got the feeling that the so-called sensitive fish are more sensitive than clownfish or damsels.

The key is "healthy fish." If the fish is not healthy to begin with, I agree that cupramine will add more stress to it. Angels and butterflies are generally more sensitive to poor water conditions or changing environments than clown or damsels, so when they are taken out of the ocean and go into an unfamiliar captive condition, they will naturally be weaker at first. When hobbyists apply cupramine to them at this point, they'll seem sensitive, but this is not because of the cupramine but because they are not in good health to begin with.

If your fish have been established for months and are eating fine, I don't see why you can't put all of them into QT and treat with cupramine for four straight weeks to eliminate velvet and ich. Then just leave the DT fallow for 12 weeks and you should be ich-free.

 

[inigomontoya]

In the "ich" qt -it was a flame angel that showed one speck of ich- whole tank got cupramine. No one else in the tank (a raccoon butterfly, auriga) showed signs in any fashion (specs nor behavior/scratching).
The other qt had butterflies, one auriga, raccoon, a saddleback and declivis. The saddleback never ate and didn't make it- the others are now in the DT.
All were from the same source- separately shipped.

 

[HumbleFish]

If they all came from the same source and one had ich, then likely they all had ich. The problem with ich is symptoms can be so subtle that you don't even notice. A fish with ich will not necessarily show any visible symptoms i.e. specks. The parasite can harbor in the gills, out of sight. You may not even notice twitching/rubbing unless the infestation is heavy, and bothers the fish enough.

 

[inigomontoya]

That is the most likely source- guess I will do a prophylactic treatment every time from now on even if it seems unnecessary.
With the tank empty of fish I don't lose much by taking it hypo- just have to remove snails and I can gain six weeks of time back (a little over a month of hypo and some time to stabilize).
Running 400 g of RODI is difficult- does anyone know whether using tap water with an amquel type product would leave any lasting negative effect (algae). Obviously would totally drain and refill with RODI made SW after hypo period. This way I know the hypo is working for the tank as I can run it basically freshwater since there will be no fish.

 

[HumbleFish]

With the tank empty of fish I don't lose much by taking it hypo- just have to remove snails and I can gain six weeks of time back (a little over a month of hypo and some time to stabilize).

Unfortunately, hypo resistant strains of ich have been proven to exist (see below). The odds of encountering one is probably pretty low, but it sounds as though your luck runs about the same as mine.

More recently, studies have demonstrated different salinity tolerances among strains of Cryptocaryon. Yambot (2003) described one Taiwanese outbreak occurring in sea bream Sparus sarba at a salinity of 5 g/L, and another outbreak in sea perch Lates calcarifer occurring at a salinity of 10 g/L. These two strains were successfully propagated in the laboratory at 7 and 10 g/L, respectively, and are well below previously documented preferred salinities.

Source: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164