How safe is cupramine?

[125mph]

Got ich on my DT from a clownfish I brought home ... I noticed my potters angel having some grains of salt and new right away it was ich.. but I was wishful it wasnt it so I kept observing him.. Well, now his he has a lot more of the salt.. its definitely ich..

I removed all the fish and put them in a hospital tank. I was going to do hypo but now I'm thinking cupramine.

I have 2 clowns, a regal angel, a potters angel, a sixline wrasse and another fathead... Is cupramine safe for the angels?

I like the cupramine idea cause I can get them done with the treatment in 4 weeks and then get them off the treatment to observe for another 4 weeks. I plan to let the DT fallow for 12 weeks. Not sure if hypo will be 100% and it seems long, dont want fish to get too stressed.


But the main question is, Is cupramine safe for the angels?

 

[Duronakus]

Cupramine is very gentle and fine with angels , personally I would go with hypo right down to 1.009 over a couple of days , u need a refractometer to do this and calibration is a pain with room temp changing take multiple readings morning and evening , hypo doesn't tend to make the fish stress at all tends to do the opposite helps them recover from disease etc a lot easier , I've kept all kinds of sensitive fish in hypo up to 8-10 weeks with no problems

 

[125mph]

Well, I dont mind hypo but I want something that is 100%.. Hypo seems like it may be good 90% but may fail.. But copper is 100%: kills ich, velvet and everything ..

Is .5 a good dosage or is .35 enough and will allow the fish to tolerate it more?

 

[Duronakus]

.3 is the supposed therapeutic level at killing velvet and ich , I found hypo to be 100% providing two things the salinity stays between 1.008 - 1009 and that what u are dealing with is truly ich and not some other pest

 

[125mph]

Thanks Duron! I had a bad experience with hypo before so I'm just a lil weary going that path again.... And I'm not 100% certain the clowns brought only ich.. maybe they brought other parasites too.

So... made the decision.. I just started cupramine on my hospital tank. Its filled with 13G of water and I put 16 drops. (Strange, the website instruction says 20 drops per 10.5G while the bottle says 16 drops.. I must have an older bottle). That's suppose to be the recommended dose for 10.5G for the first day to bring the copper level to .25mg/L. I'm going to buy a test kit tonight and bring up the level to .4mg/L after 72 hours.

I know this is debated but the recommended dosage is .5mg/L. Some people say .35 minimum and some people say go .4... What is a good dosage to go with or should I observe how the fish eat and go from there?

 

[HumbleFish]

I know this is debated but the recommended dosage is .5mg/L. Some people say .35 minimum and some people say go .4... What is a good dosage to go with or should I observe how the fish eat and go from there?

IMO; shoot for 0.4. This gives you some wiggle room not skirting the 0.35 minimum, as Cu levels do tend to fluctuate.

But sometimes, depending on which test kit you are using, you cannot accurately determine what is 0.4. If this is the case, then shoot for 0.5 as every test kit has a color for that. Cupramine doesn't start becoming dangerous until you go north of 0.6, with 0.8 considered "toxic".

 

[125mph]

Yikes.. just asked my wife to look at the hospital tank since I'm not home.. she said all the fish are doing fine except the regal is not swimming well and tipped sideways.. not good..

Do I leave the regal in the copper treatment or should I move him to a QT tank without copper? If they are swimming sideways, thats not good right? Will he die if I leave him on copper?

 

[HumbleFish]

Yikes.. just asked my wife to look at the hospital tank since I'm not home.. she said all the fish are doing fine except the regal is not swimming well and tipped sideways.. not good..

Do I leave the regal in the copper treatment or should I move him to a QT tank without copper? If they are swimming sideways, thats not good right? Will he die if I leave him on copper?

Everyone has their own opinion about this, but IME angels are def sensitive to copper. That's not to say you can't treat most angels with copper, but you have to raise it very slowly to have the best chance of success.

Appetite suppression is the most common side affect I've encountered; I've never see an angel side sideways after being introduced to copper. So, it may be the copper or something totally unrelated. But I think if I were you I'd move him to your QT without copper just to see if his condition improves. Any other fish in there (that could get infected if the angel has something)?

 

[125mph]

Looks like false alarm.. I just went home to check out the regal.. It is swimming a little sideways but I would say its on a slight tilt and not looking that bad. Just signs of a little stress.

I checked the copper level and its slightly below .25 mg/L.

Hows this look? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5SS2MwzN7c&feature=youtu.be

 

[ca1ore]

Everyone has their own opinion about this, but IME angels are def sensitive to copper. That's not to say you can't treat most angels with copper, but you have to raise it very slowly to have the best chance of success.

Agreed! I have treated dwarf angels with cupramine, but you do have to be careful, Flames seem particularly sensitive to copper. Never had to treat any of my Regals though.

 

[HumbleFish]

Looks like false alarm.. I just went home to check out the regal.. It is swimming a little sideways but I would say its on a slight tilt and not looking that bad. Just signs of a little stress.

I checked the copper level and its slightly below .25 mg/L.

Hows this look? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5SS2MwzN7c&feature=youtu.be

They all look a little stressed to me. How big is your QT?

 

[125mph]

They all look a little stressed to me. How big is your QT?

its a standard 17G tank.. 23.5"x10.5"x14.5"... filled to around 14.5G

I know its small but thats the largest hospital/QT tank size I have without having issues with the wife lol.

 

[HumbleFish]

its a standard 17G tank.. 23.5"x10.5"x14.5"... filled to around 14.5G

I know its small but thats the largest hospital/QT tank size I have without having issues with the wife lol.

You may have already answered this, but what are you doing for biological filtration in there? Or just daily WCs to keep the ammonia at bay?

 

[125mph]

You may have already answered this, but what are you doing for biological filtration in there? Or just daily WCs to keep the ammonia at bay?

Daily WC.. The first WC I did was this morning and technically it was 36 hours. I'm not sure if the ammonia can rise that quickly so I did a BIG WC this morning. I re-dosed cupermine but still took down the levels to around .2 mg/L.

The fish seemed immediately happy after the WC so maybe it was the ammonia that affected them more than the cupermine. I'm getting an ammonia badge today so I can better monitor the ammonia. I do have the reg test kits but I read it doesnt work with the copper.

I'm going to get some bactera products such as bio-spira from the LFS to see if that can help start some bio. I am running a fluval C2 which has some ceramic media for bio but its barely anything.

 

[Duronakus]

Just take things slow the balance problem is deff related to the copper just ramp it up slowly and monitor ppm very closely , also ammonia builds up very very fast but then also dosing copper can effect the ammonia test kit reading , just take things slow if u can afford to and u will b fine

 

[125mph]

Just take things slow the balance problem is deff related to the copper just ramp it up slowly and monitor ppm very closely , also ammonia builds up very very fast but then also dosing copper can effect the ammonia test kit reading , just take things slow if u can afford to and u will b fine

Cool thanks!

I just got the ammonia badge and it shows "safe" levels of ammonia. I also just dosed with stability as I've read on some threads thats a good route to go for a new hospital tank.

 

[Deinonych]

Cool thanks!

I just got the ammonia badge and it shows "safe" levels of ammonia. I also just dosed with stability as I've read on some threads thats a good route to go for a new hospital tank.

I personally have seen better results with Biospira. Stability seems to take too long to create a suitable bacterial population. If I need a QT setup in a pinch, I dump half a bottle of Biospira in the tank prior to adding fish.

 

[125mph]

I personally have seen better results with Biospira. Stability seems to take too long to create a suitable bacterial population. If I need a QT setup in a pinch, I dump half a bottle of Biospira in the tank prior to adding fish.

Does the bacteria need anything to attach to? I have some ceramic things that came with my fluval but they're very small.. I just brought some Seachem Matrix Bio Media which looks like rocks but they're suppose to be super porous.. I'm hoping the bacteria can bind to that easily..

However, I just read using liverock or other pourous media such as Matrix may just absorb the copper and throw off copper levels...

Should I keep the matrix in the fluval?

 

[Deinonych]

Seachem Matrix is what I use in my HOB filter. Seems to work well. I have not used it with Cupramine, however (I treat with CP primarily). You might give Seachem a call and ask them - they have very good customer support, and since they make both products they should know.

 

[125mph]

Now that I think about it, the tank transfer method sounds pretty good... If my fish dont start eating well by tomorrow, I may ditch the copper and transfer them to a new tank, clean out the current hospital and execute the tank transfer method.

Right now all the ich appears to have fallen off the fish so I'm thinking the transfer method could work.