Hey, I've been having some problems keeping the LiveRock looking healthy, having done some research on the subject I found an absolutely radical... yet sound theory of how to fix it and I just wanted to run it past you pros first... The theory is that too much bio filtration (ie fluidized bed filter on small system... which I have) will actually 'starve' the LR, and hence, I've got detritus and hair algea that are begining to take over. My amonia and nitrites have tested at 0 for the last few months... (nitrates 15-20ppm and only a barely detectable trace of phosphates) But I'm wondering if you think it might be a good idea to start slowly drawing out the media in the FB filter so the LR has more to feed on??? suggestions? thanks!
how to create healthier LR?
- Thread starter unit91
- Start date
Travis L. Stevens
New member
This is the principal of a natural system. I think it's also called a Berlin system. Or was it a Jaubert system? Oh well, this "natural" way is actually a little more helpful in chemical filtration, but you will still need some form of mechanical filtration to get this debris out before it has a chance to decompose. I, of course, recomend a skimmer (which you have). Other than that, anything extra is just polishing the water. Whether it is a HOB filter (no biowheels) maintenanced every so often or a micron filter on your return is all up to you.
sphelps
Premium Member
If you have the correct amount of live rock in your tank then there is no need for Bio Media, and it should be removed. What you read is correct, the bio media is getting the first crack at the organics, and the FB filter does not provide any source of denitrification which explains your nitrate reading, which although could be acceptable (depending on livestock) should really be undetectable in my opinion unless it's fish only.
Live Rock will not only act just like a bio media but it has low oxygen zones deep within the rock where denitrification can take place. Heavy skimming is always good, keep in mind a skimmer is usually most effective if it can be placed inline with an overflow. The skimmer should get first crack at the water from the overflow box as proteins rise and are skimmed of the top of the water by the overflow box then forced in a skimmer where the majority of them can be removed before they decompose. The live rock will take care of the rest. Some form of mechanical filtration is needed in my opinion, and should be replaced quite often, however many reef keepers don't use mechanical filtration and report just as good of results.
Be sure you have a good amount of water flow in your tank so detris and organics will stay suspended so they can be removed more effectively.
Also not sure if you thought of this already but live rock does require that you maintain Alkalinity and Calcium levels to keep the Caroline algae blooming, usually a tank will have a dominant type of algae which will out compete other types, so do your best to encourage the right algae.
Live Rock will not only act just like a bio media but it has low oxygen zones deep within the rock where denitrification can take place. Heavy skimming is always good, keep in mind a skimmer is usually most effective if it can be placed inline with an overflow. The skimmer should get first crack at the water from the overflow box as proteins rise and are skimmed of the top of the water by the overflow box then forced in a skimmer where the majority of them can be removed before they decompose. The live rock will take care of the rest. Some form of mechanical filtration is needed in my opinion, and should be replaced quite often, however many reef keepers don't use mechanical filtration and report just as good of results.
Be sure you have a good amount of water flow in your tank so detris and organics will stay suspended so they can be removed more effectively.
Also not sure if you thought of this already but live rock does require that you maintain Alkalinity and Calcium levels to keep the Caroline algae blooming, usually a tank will have a dominant type of algae which will out compete other types, so do your best to encourage the right algae.
Just thought I would throw in my $0.02 I have a 4 tank system holding about 80 gallons. I do not have a skimmer running and no mechanical filter really in any way (not even sponges on my overflows). I dont have a huge amount of flow, but maybe 15X turnover per hour. Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate all read 0. I have I would say about 75 lbs of LR total and all of it looks wonderful. Always covered in all types of life and bugs. I feed my tank 3 times a day (sometimes 4) and I think thats honestly the main reason for the change. I used to feed just once a day and my LR looked pretty bare, now its like completely different rock. I should mention I took about 3-4 months to build up to feeding as much as I do, giving everything time to slowly build up to the higher amount of food available. I read a study that naturally a reef gets about 150ml of actual food per 100 gallons a day. By this standard I am still underfeeding my tank, yet I feed more than most hobbyists I know. All of my fish and coral do great (never sick, no fighting, bright color) and FWIW I wouldn't really change anything about it, maybe a few equipment changes, but as far as the tank as a whole it is doing great. Not sure if any of this will help out or not, but good luck and I hope everything works out well for you.
Rick
Rick
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
I think a system can adapt to the feeding, my problem is sustaining that kind of schedule... esp when you have a tank sitter.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
unit91, I gotta ask...what about the rock needs to change to make it healthier? Many people here are giving responses based on what they think would make it better...but the solutions address different problems...and those might vary from one tank to the next.
'Cooking', a type of curing, reduces the organics & phosphates given off by LR.
Bleaching or boiling removes everything, and could be considered a way of making it healthier if your goal is the total elimination of organics.
Ordering reef grunge from Garf.org is another way of making rock better by culturing it with more critters, pods, etc. This method introduces natural cleaning critters that clean the rock as well.
The solution will depend on what your goal is...so...what is it?
One thing is for sure, I would remove that fluidized bed filter and look into some sort of phosphate control or address that issue. Have you tested for phosphates? Thats a good place to start.
'Cooking', a type of curing, reduces the organics & phosphates given off by LR.
Bleaching or boiling removes everything, and could be considered a way of making it healthier if your goal is the total elimination of organics.
Ordering reef grunge from Garf.org is another way of making rock better by culturing it with more critters, pods, etc. This method introduces natural cleaning critters that clean the rock as well.
The solution will depend on what your goal is...so...what is it?
One thing is for sure, I would remove that fluidized bed filter and look into some sort of phosphate control or address that issue. Have you tested for phosphates? Thats a good place to start.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
I agree with hahnmeister. You weren't clear what your objective is. Do you have a nuisance algae problem, or are you trying to promote pro-biotics like coraline algae and incrusting invertebrates? The two goals have separate courses of action to achieve them.
The first ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œnatural reef aquariumsââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ were created by Lee Chin Eng, in Jakarta, Indonesia. They were introduced to North America in the February 1961 TFH article, written by mr. Eng. They havenââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t come that far since their inception. Remote refugiums were around in the sixtees as well. The use of natural light is another idea that got lost somewhere along the way. We had 40 years of highly mechanized aquarium systems before the idea has come full circle. I hope we get it right this time.
I agree with the idea of removing your fluidized bed filter. Not because of a belief that it generates residual nitrate, but because I feel it is ineffective at providing a suitable site for nitrifying bacteria. It would be redundant in doing so anyway. Your live rock (healthy or not) and substrate are a far superior home for nitrifying bacteria.
The idea that biological filtration media is singly capable of adding nitrate to your aquarium is a myth. Man-made biological filtration is redundant, but not harmful. Nitrification is carried-out on the surface area of live rock and sand in captive reefs, just as it is in nature. The logic that would require the removal of biological filtration, would advocate for a rock and substrate-free tank.
The function of bio-balls and fluidized beds in captive reef systems has always been highly debated. Companies like Dupla convinced us, with high gloss ads and beautiful packaging, that they are extremely efficient sites for nitrifying bacteria. Science however, has proven otherwise.
The only scientific testing that I have found with regards to the efficacy of biological filtration media proved the following. An eight-inch deep column of crushed coral was conditioned to grow a viable colony of nitrifying bacteria. A measured amount of ammonia was added to the column. The ammonia was converted to nitrite then nitrate (nitrification) as it traveled through the media. The effluent water was ammonia and nitrite free.
When the same experiment was carried out using bio-balls, it took a forty-foot column to achieve the same result. This was a controlled experiment that is repeatable. The experiment proved that surface area is more significant than void space.
Another experiment was carried out where they counted the volume of nitrifying bacteria on granules of gravel. This study proved that 90% of the bacteria lived on detritus on the gravel rather than on the actual pores of the gravel. Porous biological filtration media (gravel or ceramics) only provide more area for detritus to attach, so bacteria can, in turn, attach to it. Bio-balls have a lesser amount of surface area for detritus to form and therefore provide a poor site for biological film to populate.
It takes three weeks for nitrifying bacteria to develop on a site. A biological film first coats the detritus on the media. Then layers of bacteria start to grow on top of each other. The site grows to a critical mass and reduces nitrogen compounds to less toxic forms. After about three weeks the biological slime coat becomes too large and unstable for the site. It sloughs off and leaves a fresh location for the process to continue the cycle. As one site rises, another falls, maintaining a stable colony over all. Fluidized bed filters are not conducive to this life cycle.
A process called "wash-off" occurs when fast moving water passes through biological filtration media. The force of the water pre-maturely removes the biological slime that houses nitrifying bacteria, rendering it void of filtering capacity. Biological media in wet-dry filters and fluidized beds will be devoid of detritus and biological slime due to wash-off. Live rock and substrate are a more stable location for autotrophic and heterotrophic bacteria, due to the lack of wash-off.
The nitrogen cycle starts with nutrient import (feeding and water changes). Proteins such as urea, amino acids, and phenols are converted to ammonia through a biological mineralization process known as deamination. The proper use of chemical filtration such as protein skimming, ozonation, UV irradiation, and physical adsorption (carbon, ion exchangers, polymeric adsorbents etc.), will only minimize the nitrification process.
Nitrification, and the subsequent residual of nitrate, is a biological process that is constant and as unavoidable as taxation. Nitrifying bacteria will flourish if there is an abundance of food, namely ammonia and nitrite. If your system is in flux, you will have excess organic nutrients. Nitrogen compounds will build-up, and a residual of nitrate will be an available nutrient for nuisance algae.
If you canââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t limit your nutrient import (feeding), you need to focus on your nutrient export (assimilation and removal). This can be accomplished through the employment of denitrifying bacteria and the careful balance of flora and fauna (bivalves, macro-algae, sponges, polychaete & serpulid worms, barnacles, tunicates, copepods, amphipods and other benthic invertebrates). The harvesting of macro algae growth is an excellent form of nutrient export. The secret to success is the ability to get attractive flora and fauna to out-compete with nuisance algae.
Lee Chin Eng proved, forty-five years ago, that even without mechanized filtration, water quality can be managed through the replication of natures balance. A healthy collection of corals and macro algae will reduce organic waste and balance captive reef ecosystems. Many successful aquariums are maintained with only water pumps, natural light, and proper livestock selection.
The first ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œnatural reef aquariumsââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ were created by Lee Chin Eng, in Jakarta, Indonesia. They were introduced to North America in the February 1961 TFH article, written by mr. Eng. They havenââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t come that far since their inception. Remote refugiums were around in the sixtees as well. The use of natural light is another idea that got lost somewhere along the way. We had 40 years of highly mechanized aquarium systems before the idea has come full circle. I hope we get it right this time.
I agree with the idea of removing your fluidized bed filter. Not because of a belief that it generates residual nitrate, but because I feel it is ineffective at providing a suitable site for nitrifying bacteria. It would be redundant in doing so anyway. Your live rock (healthy or not) and substrate are a far superior home for nitrifying bacteria.
The idea that biological filtration media is singly capable of adding nitrate to your aquarium is a myth. Man-made biological filtration is redundant, but not harmful. Nitrification is carried-out on the surface area of live rock and sand in captive reefs, just as it is in nature. The logic that would require the removal of biological filtration, would advocate for a rock and substrate-free tank.
The function of bio-balls and fluidized beds in captive reef systems has always been highly debated. Companies like Dupla convinced us, with high gloss ads and beautiful packaging, that they are extremely efficient sites for nitrifying bacteria. Science however, has proven otherwise.
The only scientific testing that I have found with regards to the efficacy of biological filtration media proved the following. An eight-inch deep column of crushed coral was conditioned to grow a viable colony of nitrifying bacteria. A measured amount of ammonia was added to the column. The ammonia was converted to nitrite then nitrate (nitrification) as it traveled through the media. The effluent water was ammonia and nitrite free.
When the same experiment was carried out using bio-balls, it took a forty-foot column to achieve the same result. This was a controlled experiment that is repeatable. The experiment proved that surface area is more significant than void space.
Another experiment was carried out where they counted the volume of nitrifying bacteria on granules of gravel. This study proved that 90% of the bacteria lived on detritus on the gravel rather than on the actual pores of the gravel. Porous biological filtration media (gravel or ceramics) only provide more area for detritus to attach, so bacteria can, in turn, attach to it. Bio-balls have a lesser amount of surface area for detritus to form and therefore provide a poor site for biological film to populate.
It takes three weeks for nitrifying bacteria to develop on a site. A biological film first coats the detritus on the media. Then layers of bacteria start to grow on top of each other. The site grows to a critical mass and reduces nitrogen compounds to less toxic forms. After about three weeks the biological slime coat becomes too large and unstable for the site. It sloughs off and leaves a fresh location for the process to continue the cycle. As one site rises, another falls, maintaining a stable colony over all. Fluidized bed filters are not conducive to this life cycle.
A process called "wash-off" occurs when fast moving water passes through biological filtration media. The force of the water pre-maturely removes the biological slime that houses nitrifying bacteria, rendering it void of filtering capacity. Biological media in wet-dry filters and fluidized beds will be devoid of detritus and biological slime due to wash-off. Live rock and substrate are a more stable location for autotrophic and heterotrophic bacteria, due to the lack of wash-off.
The nitrogen cycle starts with nutrient import (feeding and water changes). Proteins such as urea, amino acids, and phenols are converted to ammonia through a biological mineralization process known as deamination. The proper use of chemical filtration such as protein skimming, ozonation, UV irradiation, and physical adsorption (carbon, ion exchangers, polymeric adsorbents etc.), will only minimize the nitrification process.
Nitrification, and the subsequent residual of nitrate, is a biological process that is constant and as unavoidable as taxation. Nitrifying bacteria will flourish if there is an abundance of food, namely ammonia and nitrite. If your system is in flux, you will have excess organic nutrients. Nitrogen compounds will build-up, and a residual of nitrate will be an available nutrient for nuisance algae.
If you canââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t limit your nutrient import (feeding), you need to focus on your nutrient export (assimilation and removal). This can be accomplished through the employment of denitrifying bacteria and the careful balance of flora and fauna (bivalves, macro-algae, sponges, polychaete & serpulid worms, barnacles, tunicates, copepods, amphipods and other benthic invertebrates). The harvesting of macro algae growth is an excellent form of nutrient export. The secret to success is the ability to get attractive flora and fauna to out-compete with nuisance algae.
Lee Chin Eng proved, forty-five years ago, that even without mechanized filtration, water quality can be managed through the replication of natures balance. A healthy collection of corals and macro algae will reduce organic waste and balance captive reef ecosystems. Many successful aquariums are maintained with only water pumps, natural light, and proper livestock selection.
