How to expand Apex

[rosebud161616]

We are looking to expand our Apex to another tank which is approximately 30' away. I believe this is how we're supposed to do it:

-Purchase a second base unit
-Purchase a long enough aquabus cable to connect the base unit to the other controller
-Purchase a power bar or DC8 (already running an ACJr on 2nd tank so we have a DC8) to connect to base unit

Here's our problem though. It seems that the Aquabus cable is just a USB cable. USB cables have a max length of 5m which is approximately 16ft. But the neptune site says "Cable lengths over 200 feet." How could it do over 200 ft without a repeater every 16 ft?

Then I thought I would hop online and look for the different lengths of aquabus cables. All I can find are 15' aquabus cables with a 15' extension aquabus cable. Are you supposed to daisy chain the 15' cables until you get the length that you need? And if so, do you need to somehow integrate a repeater between each cable?

 

[Deleted member 143833]

You don't need a second base unit; the 1 base will work; an EB8 will be needed and you may want a PM1 to get a temp and PH probe to the second tank.

Cables, can be ordered; search the forum there are a few resources; NO repeaters; the electronics in the Apex can handle the distance!

 

[rosebud161616]

Well with a PM1 and EB8 I would have to have 2 aquabus cables running 30'. For the price of a PM1 and EB8 (since I already have a DC8) we would be at the same price as another base unit.

I should have mentioned earlier that we are running a DIY LED system on the second tank with dimmable drivers. The second base unit would give us the capability to dim via the variable voltage ports.

We also plan to eventually swap out the MH on the 1st tank with DIY LEDs so we would like to use the variable voltage ports on the base unit we already have for that, and then have the second set of variable voltage ports on the 2nd base unit for the 2nd tank. Hope that makes sense...

You had mentioned that there are sources for cables. I have searched and searched and searched and I all I can find are the 15' aquabus and 15' extension aquabus. Are you supposed to daisy chain them to the length you want or are they sold in longer lengths that I just haven't found? Being that they're USB cables, you can't really purchase longer USB cables either unless they have some sort of repeater built in... since the USB standard states that 5m is that max on USB.

Makes sense now that I think about it that the Apex could handle longer. Over 5m you start to get too much lag for the normal computer standards, but if the Apex was designed to sit and wait for longer periods of time, it would eventually get the info.

Thanks so much for the help!

 

[aquamanic]

Well with a PM1 and EB8 I would have to have 2 aquabus cables running 30'.

No, run one long cable to the PM1, then the EB8 off that. That's the beauty of the Aquabus - it doesn't care where anything is.

You might also consider a second display module, again run off the PM1 or the EB8 at the remote end.

I should have mentioned earlier that we are running a DIY LED system on the second tank with dimmable drivers. The second base unit would give us the capability to dim via the variable voltage ports.

If you did that, then yes you need that base module. The AquaSurf will not handle dimmable lights. But, you can't put two base units on a single Aquabus. At that point you simply have two systems.



You can get custom made cables of any length here - you want straight Male 'A' on each end and as Ken said, no repeaters or boosters:
http://www.usbfirewire.com/custom-usb-cable.html

 

[rosebud161616]

No, run one long cable to the PM1, then the EB8 off that. That's the beauty of the Aquabus - it doesn't care where anything is.

OHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... light bulb just went off. Makes sense. :idea:

If you did that, then yes you need that base module. The AquaSurf will not handle dimmable lights. But, you can't put two base units on a single Aquabus. At that point you simply have two systems.

You know right after writing that above, I went and looked and realized the webserver, datalogging, etc. is housed in the base unit. I was thinking of the display as being the brains but now I realize it's just kind of a monitor with buttons and graphing abilities. So I could see how having a second base unit would really screw things up!

So I guess the question is... when will there be a variable voltage extension module (for light dimming...yeah yea there's already the stupid aquasurf )?!

Or how about this thinking...

The lighting dimming cable is essentially a modified ethernet cable so we should have no problems going 30 feet, just have to run that second cable (1st being the aquabus) over to the base unit.

But the base unit has 4 variable voltage outputs. We were planning to use all 4 on our 120 to control 2xwhite LED drivers and 2x Blue LED drivers. Would it be possible to condense those 4 down into 2 variable voltage ports?

So one RJ45 end = 2 voltage outputs. Could we put 2 white LED drivers on one voltage output (just twist all 3 ends together), and 2 blue LED drivers on the second voltage output (twist those 3 ends together).

Then we could use the second RJ45 port to run the white and blue drivers for the 2nd tank (only one of each driver)

Or... would that totally screw up how the voltage is supplied to the drivers? IE will the variable voltage port only work correctly when connected to one device?

Also... thank you so much for that link for the cabling!

 

[aquamanic]

You can do what you want with the var voltage cables I think. The only problem is the distance. You're talking very small voltage (0 - 10v) and I don't know how that will behave over 30+ feet.

But the base unit has 4 variable voltage outputs

But only 2 RJ45 connectors...

Each RJ45 handles (2) variable speed ports. Each port uses just 2 wires (so there's extra wires in each RJ45 bundle. So you punch down the RJ45 end (I've got the specs in the User Guide) and split off the other end, 2 wires going to 1 ballast, 2 going to the other. Same for the other 2 variable speed ports. You can drive 4 ballasts that way off two RJ45 connectors.

 

[rosebud161616]

OK I was thinking that each RJ45 only had 2 wires coming out... one wire for each ballast. I have yet to really look that closely into it, other than I was reading how you can make your own of custom length, etc. Either way, kind of the same thing.

So yeah... 2 RJ45 ports, 4 variable voltage ends, 4 ballasts. I'm good there. We're trying to figure out a way that we could do 6 drivers (ie ballasts).

RJ45 port #1
-voltage port A = 2xWhite LED Drivers tank 1
-voltage port B = 2xBlue LED Drivers tank 1

RJ45 port #2
-voltage port A = 1xwhite LED driver tank 2
-voltage port B = 1xblue LED driver tank 2

So I'm wondering, in the case of port #1A and port #1B... would that change how the voltage is supplied to those drivers. Like would it be half since it's going to two drivers, etc.? I know I'm sort of asking more of an electrical question here...

Good point on the amount of voltage that would still travel the 30'. I guess it's so cheap to make an ethernet cable... I could test it and see. If it doesn't work I can just crimp another end on and have a 30' ethernet cable... no loss!

 

[RussM]

So I'm wondering, in the case of port #1A and port #1B... would that change how the voltage is supplied to those drivers. Like would it be half since it's going to two drivers, etc.? I know I'm sort of asking more of an electrical question here...

The dimming inputs on the drivers will probably have a fairly high input impedance, so they won't load down the 0-10DVC control signal.

 

[aquamanic]

I could test it and see

In the end, that's what it will come down to. :beer:

 

[prop-frags]

You can do what you want with the var voltage cables I think. The only problem is the distance. You're talking very small voltage (0 - 10v) and I don't know how that will behave over 30+ feet.

But only 2 RJ45 connectors...

Each RJ45 handles (2) variable speed ports. Each port uses just 2 wires (so there's extra wires in each RJ45 bundle. So you punch down the RJ45 end (I've got the specs in the User Guide) and split off the other end, 2 wires going to 1 ballast, 2 going to the other. Same for the other 2 variable speed ports. You can drive 4 ballasts that way off two RJ45 connectors.

Consider the 802.3 Ethernet specification. For 10BaseT (which is the common RJ45 connector with cat3/4/5 UTP cable), the voltages are +/- 0.7v, and the cable impedance is 100 ohm. Each Ethernet segment can be up to 100 meters. So while this doesn't dictate what the Apex is doing over the var speed ports, it is a safe assumption that the kinds of distances you are looking at should be just fine over a quality cat5 UTP cable.

 

[rosebud161616]

Consider the 802.3 Ethernet specification. For 10BaseT (which is the common RJ45 connector with cat3/4/5 UTP cable), the voltages are +/- 0.7v, and the cable impedance is 100 ohm. Each Ethernet segment can be up to 100 meters. So while this doesn't dictate what the Apex is doing over the var speed ports, it is a safe assumption that the kinds of distances you are looking at should be just fine over a quality cat5 UTP cable.

Woohoo that is good news! I was really starting to think I was out of luck on this multiple tank plan. Problem #1 solved!

Any thoughts on whether the voltage would be supplied the same the LED fixtures whether two drivers are hooked to a single variable voltage port or one driver?

The dimming inputs on the drivers will probably have a fairly high input impedance, so they won't load down the 0-10DVC control signal.

Wow I'm really lost on this! I think you are saying the same thing as prop-frags... right? :fun5:


So any other thoughts on the multiple drivers on a single variable voltage port?

 

[RussM]

Any thoughts on whether the voltage would be supplied the same the LED fixtures whether two drivers are hooked to a single variable voltage port or one driver?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussM
The dimming inputs on the drivers will probably have a fairly high input impedance, so they won't load down the 0-10DVC control signal.


This means that connecting two drivers' dimmer inputs to one variable speed port should work fine. And no, it won't cut the voltage in half.

If you didn't understand my original response due to a lack of fundamental electrical/electronics knowledge and concepts, perhaps DIYing LED lighting is not such a good idea. I'm not trying to be mean, just stating this from a practical perspective.

 

[rosebud161616]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussM
The dimming inputs on the drivers will probably have a fairly high input impedance, so they won't load down the 0-10DVC control signal.


This means that connecting two drivers' dimmer inputs to one variable speed port should work fine. And no, it won't cut the voltage in half.

If you didn't understand my original response due to a lack of fundamental electrical/electronics knowledge and concepts, perhaps DIYing LED lighting is not such a good idea. I'm not trying to be mean, just stating this from a practical perspective.

Ummm wow? I was trying to determine what you were saying and not offend you. I'm sorry if me not understanding your comment offended you.

I thought the hobby was about learning and helping others to learn. I thought all of the hundreds of threads popping about DIY LED lighting were supposed to help others, not just the certified electricians and electrical engineers, be able to enjoy and share in new technology. I have been all for rewording threads that I have read, reworking ideas, teaching soldering to people who have never soldered before in their life and helping others who might otherwise be scared to touch LEDs. I don't think just because someone doesn't understand the words "input impedance" is reason to tell them to never touch LEDs again. If someone said that they didn't understand the word "zooxanthellae" would you tell them to not mess with corals? Thank goodness there are others in this hobby who are willing to help others learn and not tell them to just quit.

Now I will step off my soapbox and return to the previous scheduled program already in progress... I believe I now have the answers that I need. A 30' ethernet cable should be able to handle dimming my LEDs on tank 2. I should be able to gang up multiple drivers to a single dimming port. I won't get another base unit, but instead a PB8 and PM1, all daisy chained using USB (ie aquabus) cables. Thank you for all of the constructive help.

 

[RussM]

Sorry Rosebud... I was just grumpy this morning.