How to get old frags to grow?

[shaggss]

Hi All

I have some old frags in my tank that have not done too much, no growth at all in twelve or so months. I contribute the initial no growth to a low pH problem that I had and underfeeding the tank. Since I added a CO2 scrubber and feed more I have noticed a vast improvement in both colour and growth of my other SPS but not all.

My pink birds nest has done nothing during this time. It is dark in colour too. Is it possible for it to start growing? I would also like to see the branches of my other SPS "thicken" a bit. They seem too skinny?

I have NO nuisance alge growth.

System:

50G (Total) Setup for about three years

Water = RODI (zero TDS)

SG = 35ppt (Milwalkie digital refractometer)

Alk = 155ppm ESV 2 part (Hanna)

Ca = 410 ESV 2 part (Salifert)

pH = 7.9 - 8.2 (GHL probe calibrated monthly, two months old)

PO4 = 0.03 (Hanna)

NO3 = 2 (Salifert)

K = 380 (Salifert)

Mg = 1300 Kent Tech M (Salifert)

Lights = GHL Mitras LED 12hours ramping up to 70% at about 14000K, have been on tank for approx 1 year

Flow = 1262 Eheim return + MP40 at about 40%

Skimmer = BM Hero 180

Additives = Red Sea Reef Energy B 3ml/day + Oysterfeast 3ml/day + 5TBS of GFO and 5TBS of Rox carbon changed every 2 weeks.

Carbon Dosing = Vinegar at 12ml/day.

Feeding = one cube of Mysis shrimp or some diced clams once per day.

Water Changes = 10%/week with 50% IO and 50% RC

Fish = Pair Maroon clowns, 2 x small BTA, 1 x Banggai, 1 x starry blenny, 1 x electric blue damsel, 1 x flame hawkfish, 2 x green brittle stars (small). Plus normal CUC (hermits and snails etc....)

Any advice is great appreciated!

 

[Reefer54]

Your params look GREAT. If you are religious with your maintenance and upkeep, theyn I would say that some of the possible reasons for their stubborn behavior would be light, flow, and the possibility that if they were wild caught, they are not acclimating to the caged life.

I see you have the 1262 return pump, but what is the head loss? what kind of flow are you implementing....laminar? surge? indirect opposing with the mp40?

So I would check their placement in the tank. If you can get the sps frags closer to the light and in a better multi directional flow pattern, that may help. As well, with the leds, do they have lenses on them? How high above the water? How deep is the tank? Have you any availability to the use of a par meter?

 

[shaggss]

Thanks Reefer54!

Your params look GREAT. If you are religious with your maintenance and upkeep YES!, theyn I would say that some of the possible reasons for their stubborn behavior would be light, flow, and the possibility that if they were wild caught, they are not acclimating to the caged life.

I see you have the 1262 return pump, but what is the head loss? About 4' with three 90 elbows

what kind of flow are you implementing....laminar?

So I would check their placement in the tank. If you can get the sps frags closer to the light and in a better multi directional flow pattern, that may help.

As well, with the leds, do they have lenses on them? NO

How high above the water? I have tried various heights from 12" moving them slowly down to present location of 8"

How deep is the tank? 18"

Have you any availability to the use of a par meter? Unfortunately no!

I have tried the MP40 in different locations and varying modes/strength with little to no noticeable changes. These were wild caught and due to it STNing from the base I fragged it.

 

[Arkayology]

I have read that some will purposefully clip the very tip of the branches off or use a needle to poke at them to get some tissue recovery going and spur growth. Not really sure if it works...

 

[shaggss]

I have read that some will purposefully clip the very tip of the branches off or use a needle to poke at them to get some tissue recovery going and spur growth. Not really sure if it works...

Yes! I have read the same, maybe worth a try, thanks!

 

[v1...rotate]

I can lend you a par meter Boss!

 

[Reefer54]

Thanks Reefer54!


I have tried the MP40 in different locations and varying modes/strength with little to no noticeable changes. These were wild caught and due to it STNing from the base I fragged it.

Is that 4' + 3 90's ? If so, that is more like 7 feet.
The flow thing....laminar is one directional all the time, like the v-shaped or 0-shaped terminations from lock line or a bare pvc 90 that feeds into the top of a tank. Eductors and penductors, look em up. Both magnify the water export into the tank. You can even get them with nifty little swiveling baffles inside of the termination chamber so the water has a more circular motion instead of straight out all the time. Do your mp40 and return termination face eachother, intersect (if so, what kind of an angle) Do you surge the mp40? Basically, as you know, you want to avoid dead flow zones in your tank, and if they have been in one, move em.

Regarding the lights, without lenses, the leds have a very narrow and straight penetration. You may even be able to see the different light hues on the sandbed. This disallows from an even spectrum distribution from the different color lights. Raising your lights will help with this tremendously, and you can up the running wattage to compensate for light lost in height. I have mine at 18 in above water level and though my tank is 21 deep, my water is only really 14 deep. lenses can be added II dont know about your specific lights, but most can) as well to help the lights discharge at a larger degree than the almost straight down they are. If you have a canopy, hang your lights higher, and line the canopy with reflectors/mirrors so the lights bounce off the walls and you get a better spectral distribution.

Check out the SENEYE. It is a very affordable par meter and nutrient meter. Very cool product.....very affordable and top of the line for normal hobbyists without friends that run a city aquarium or lfs.

Good luck

 

[shaggss]

I can lend you a par meter Boss!

Cool thanks Andrew! Picked up a great RBTA from Alex. Looks awesome.

 

[shaggss]

Is that 4' + 3 90's ? Yes

If so, that is more like 7 feet.
The flow thing....laminar is one directional all the time, like the v-shaped or 0-shaped terminations from lock line or a bare pvc 90 that feeds into the top of a tank. Eductors and penductors, look em up. Both magnify the water export into the tank. You can even get them with nifty little swiveling baffles inside of the termination chamber so the water has a more circular motion instead of straight out all the time. I have been toying with the idea of increasing my return flow with a laguna pump, but as the other corals were doing good, didnt thing that this was a major issue?

Do your mp40 and return termination face eachother, intersect (if so, what kind of an angle) They face the same direction. I thought about moving it to the opposite end but that is where my BTAs are and they have in one spot for a long time. I didn't want to spook them!

Do you surge the mp40?Yes

Basically, as you know, you want to avoid dead flow zones in your tank, and if they have been in one, move em. No dead spots that I can see!

Regarding the lights, without lenses, the leds have a very narrow and straight penetration. You may even be able to see the different light hues on the sandbed. This disallows from an even spectrum distribution from the different color lights. Raising your lights will help with this tremendously, and you can up the running wattage to compensate for light lost in height. I have mine at 18 in above water level and though my tank is 21 deep, my water is only really 14 deep. lenses can be added II dont know about your specific lights, but most can) as well to help the lights discharge at a larger degree than the almost straight down they are. If you have a canopy, hang your lights higher, and line the canopy with reflectors/mirrors so the lights bounce off the walls and you get a better spectral distribution. Great, thanks for the tips! I didnt know that about LEDs!

Check out the SENEYE. It is a very affordable par meter and nutrient meter. Very cool product.....very affordable and top of the line for normal hobbyists without friends that run a city aquarium or lfs. I will thanks again for all your input, much appreciated!

Good luck

 

[Guttungen]

I have read that some will purposefully clip the very tip of the branches off or use a needle to poke at them to get some tissue recovery going and spur growth. Not really sure if it works...

I've done this several times with som of my fraggs, with the same great results every time.
I had a 2 brached turaki fragg that I accidentally broke a tip of one brach. The broken 1 grew up great, the brach I didn't touch never grew. That's bout a year ago.

 

[Reefer54]

Anytime.

Regarding the flow and return facing the same direction. It may not be bad at all based on your tank design, rock, coral placement, etc. I believe the common belief and practice is to have flows hit eachother and bounce off eachother causing a more natural, intermittant flow path in the tank. Many people face their ph in the corners, right at eachother, or opposite directions. I have a closed loop with a scwd (i know people hate them, so I have a backup and an alter plan for when they crap out) that splits 750 gph into two feeds at about 5 second intervals pointing down the sides of my tank (75 g penninsula) and slightly up. I also split the return line and one of the sides is split again giving me 3 more directions where the return enters the tank... I have those enter in the middle of the tank and point across eachother to the far corners and the third back to the closed loop. It gives an almost wave like motion. The return after head loss should be right around 1400 gph, so I have roughly 30 times turnover per hour, with nice lower flow and higher flow areas. Flow is generally considered to be constantly underappreciated in aquariums as people see the gph and think the corals cant handle it.

I dont blame you one bit for not wanting the BTAs to move.....I'll never put an anem in my tank again.

 

[Reefer54]

or frag em.

 

[Reefer54]

READ THIS THREAD. ASK BIGGLES....HE'S GOT A LOT OF EXPERIENCE. AND AWESOME IDEAOLOGY ON SPS.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2314687&highlight=ssc

 

[v1...rotate]

Cool thanks Andrew! Picked up a great RBTA from Alex. Looks awesome.

Great!! Let me come over and have a look at your tank too! I might bring a frag or two

 

[shaggss]

I've done this several times with som of my fraggs, with the same great results every time.
I had a 2 brached turaki fragg that I accidentally broke a tip of one brach. The broken 1 grew up great, the brach I didn't touch never grew. That's bout a year ago.

Thank Guttungen, much appreciated. How much would you advise to trim?

Anytime.

Regarding the flow and return facing the same direction. It may not be bad at all based on your tank design, rock, coral placement, etc. I believe the common belief and practice is to have flows hit eachother and bounce off eachother causing a more natural, intermittant flow path in the tank. Many people face their ph in the corners, right at eachother, or opposite directions. I have a closed loop with a scwd (i know people hate them, so I have a backup and an alter plan for when they crap out) that splits 750 gph into two feeds at about 5 second intervals pointing down the sides of my tank (75 g penninsula) and slightly up. I also split the return line and one of the sides is split again giving me 3 more directions where the return enters the tank... I have those enter in the middle of the tank and point across eachother to the far corners and the third back to the closed loop. It gives an almost wave like motion. The return after head loss should be right around 1400 gph, so I have roughly 30 times turnover per hour, with nice lower flow and higher flow areas. Flow is generally considered to be constantly underappreciated in aquariums as people see the gph and think the corals cant handle it.

I dont blame you one bit for not wanting the BTAs to move.....I'll never put an anem in my tank again.

Yes I have heard some real horror stories about mens moving, but I jusy can't resist having them. I have had the MP40 way up to 100% on reefcrest mode at times with no noticeable difference. I will move my return flow so its crosses the MP40 flow at 90 degrees and see if that helps.

READ THIS THREAD. ASK BIGGLES....HE'S GOT A LOT OF EXPERIENCE. AND AWESOME IDEAOLOGY ON SPS.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...&highlight=ssc

GREAT! Thank you again for all your input. Very kind of you!

Great!! Let me come over and have a look at your tank too! I might bring a frag or two

Awesome thanks dude. I am off until Saturday. Your welcome anytime! So are your frags!!!!!

 

[Guttungen]

Thank Guttungen, much appreciated. How much would you advise to trim?

Just enough to irritate them a bit. Just a few mm might be enough to trigger growth.

 

[DNA]

What does it take to get corals growing.
Perfect and steady water quality and good light.

What does it take to get them stop growing.
Instability and trauma.

My tank has had so many problems I have witnessed corals in a way many have not.

To put is short it has a lot to do with in what conditions the coral has be living in.
A coral living in rough condition may die back when there is change for the better in water quality.

You can have frags from the same colony growing in different ways and color variations depending on when it was fragged.
The younger and the older growth parts of a colony do not behave in the same way.

I think is has a lot to with understanding the hosting algae in the coral.

 

[mgraf]

I'd try fraging it. I have colonies that started from frags off of mini colonies. Some are now much bigger than the original mini colony that it originally came from

 

[shaggss]

What does it take to get corals growing.
Perfect and steady water quality and good light. Yes! Indeed!

What does it take to get them stop growing.
Instability and trauma. Yep!

My tank has had so many problems I have witnessed corals in a way many have not. My tank has definitely had it ups and downs too, like most of us!

To put is short it has a lot to do with in what conditions the coral has be living in.
A coral living in rough condition may die back when there is change for the better in water quality.

You can have frags from the same colony growing in different ways and color variations depending on when it was fragged.
The younger and the older growth parts of a colony do not behave in the same way.

I think is has a lot to with understanding the hosting algae in the coral.

Thanks for all your input, much appreciated!

 

[shaggss]

I'd try fraging it. I have colonies that started from frags off of mini colonies. Some are now much bigger than the original mini colony that it originally came from This is a frag. The main colony started to STN so i fragged it. And it has not grown since. I nipped a couple of millimeters off the tips last night, lets see how it goes now.....Thanks for your input!