The ich wasn't gone because I didn't use hypo correctly. The second time around I used copper.
How to QT correctly?
- Thread starter Fish_Kid99
- Start date
The ich wasn't gone because I didn't use hypo correctly. The second time around I used copper.
humaguy
Premium Member
I am not going to argue with you...keeping a tang in a 20 gallon tank is poor husbandry and irresponsible...
wooden_reefer
New member
The number of fish you should QT at once depends on your comfort level and experience with disease control, NOT on water chemical quality. Since a properly cycled biological filter should be able to handle a great deal of bioload. I generally QT as many fish as I can get, but you should not because you lack the skill to handle diseases, not because you cannot cycle the medium very well, as well as I can. Cycling is VERY easy and even a newbie can perfect this skill very quickly.
This is what I do:
1. Use a medium that is NOT LR for QT, such as crushed coral.
2. Cycle the medium very well a few weeks before.
3. Set up UV properly at about 5-8 gph per watt. Use a turn over rate of about 5 times per hour to size your UV in QT. UV is very useful against bacterial infection, but useless against protozoans like ich. People who say UV is not useful in reducing the incidents of bacteria infection are just ignorant, UV very much does reduce the incidents of bacterial infection, also the severity if it happens.
4. Use straight copper that is not affected by UV and measure and dose properly. Some say that UV can affect the cheleating bond of some cheleated copper; this can cause overdose.
wooden_reefer
New member
Perhaps except a very small one.
Yes, in general get a larger tank for QT. Look around on Craigslist, one can be had for very little.
The size of tank needed depends on the temperment of the fish under QT, certainly.
But the capacity of a filter to process ammonia is not much dependent on the size of the tank the filter is in; it depends on the size and recent history of the filter in processing ammonia. Generally it depends on the recent history of ammonia processing of the filter.
Prairie Reef
New member
thanks dunc101 - those are certainly helpful hints - especially about nitrates. I was under the impression that the water had to be "pristine" so that the fish would not be stressed and recover from any illness.
You can see the confusion though - the information on QT is - here's how to set it up... but the logistics are pretty sketchy there after.
It can't hurt (actually it can, but I guess I'm willing to try to give it another shot) to try to QT again - and this time focus only on ammonia and not on nitrates (so much).
You can see the confusion though - the information on QT is - here's how to set it up... but the logistics are pretty sketchy there after.
It can't hurt (actually it can, but I guess I'm willing to try to give it another shot) to try to QT again - and this time focus only on ammonia and not on nitrates (so much).
wooden_reefer
New member
There are people who always think ecologically. This is a mental trap.
There is a time for ecology in the DT; there is a time for more practical and immediate need for nitrification to rid the QT water of ammonia.
There is a time for ecology in the DT; there is a time for more practical and immediate need for nitrification to rid the QT water of ammonia.
MrTuskfish
Team RC
Sorry, Fish_Kid99, your thread got totally hijacked. I'd re-post. Maybe with the title'' A very rude forum member hijacked my thread".
Prairie Reef
New member
My apologies, to OP et al. if MrTuskfish is referring to me - and I assume he is.
I think I modeled being open to learning and feedback and in the process some really good knowledge was shared that relates to the OP topic and being successful in his QT process.
I apologize.
MrTuskfish - if you'd like to correct my netiquette please feel free to PM me.
I think I modeled being open to learning and feedback and in the process some really good knowledge was shared that relates to the OP topic and being successful in his QT process.
I apologize.
MrTuskfish - if you'd like to correct my netiquette please feel free to PM me.
Fish_Kid99
New member
The chromis and the clown fish are ready to move into the big tank and the six months on the mandarin meant that I am going to wait six months before I get it.
humaguy
Premium Member
Not sure it was you- I thought somebody else was beginning to get a bit ornery even before MrTuskfish said something...I could be wrong...
Prairie Reef
New member
OK, well, either way - no offense to anyone intended, and thank to the OP Fish_Kid99 for a great discussion.
Fish_Kid99
New member
This is completley fine. I have learned from everybody and are very glad they "hijacked" this thread.
wooden_reefer
New member
IN a QT, the UV is often very effective in reducing the incidents of bacterial infection so it is very useful.
I will never start a QT without proper UV setup.
A protein skimmer in QT is worthless.
Prairie Reef
New member
:headwally:
I'll jump back in since the OP wanted to know what else he should do to make his 20 gallon QT successful - I think this illustrates my concern. I'm not knocking wooden_reefer - or anyone else and I'm not arguing either for OR against QT - but this is what I think makes (at least for me, if not the OP) things so difficult to properly do a QT. This may sound like a rant - it isn't. It is the reality that a newbie faces when trying to do the right thing.. I'm just trying to point out the bewildering information out there that can lead to failure in a QT.
I've never heard of a skimmer in a QT, but then MY way obviously didn't work well. UV or don't UV... why would you UV if your doing prophylactic treatment - for that matter, I've heard not to do prophylactic treatment because it stresses the fish - so maybe that is when you UV.
I've heard to keep nitrates at near zero to avoid stressing the fish and exacerbating any condition that it could be having. I've heard don't worry about nitrates and just focus on ammonia. (how do I get nitrates if I don't have ammonia?)
I've heard feed heavily so that the fish can recover and gain weight from shipping. I've heard to feed sparingly because you don't have a clean up crew, skimmer and LR to help filter.
I've heard to do one fish at a time ONLY. I've heard two or three are fine (but I don't really see how that is a QT then).
I've heard never medicate in the QT... that is a separate hospital tank. I've heard I always medicate in the QT. I've heard DONT medicate unless the fish is sick, I've heard assume the fish is sick and medicate.
I've heard use AmQuel - and as I've found out - it can kill fish, suck out oxygen, and generally make your ammonia readings all whacked out.
I've heard to do large water changes daily to compensate for no filtration and I've heard to keep water changes minimal because changes in temp, salinity pH etc. can cause fish to weaken and die.
I've heard to do a pseudo-hypo to reduce the chance of ich and it is easier on a fish. I've heard don't hypo unless you have a copper sensitive fish. I've heard hypo doesn't to ANYTHING unless it is at 1.009 - at which point you really have to buffer your pH. Which again complicates things because now you're mixing water for two different tank salinities.
I've heard 10 weeks disease free is minimum to break the ich life cycle... which means take a year to stock a tank - likely with fish that total an investment for the average hobbies of less than $200.00 at a cost of running one (or two if you use a hospital tank) tank for an extra year (water changes, heater, pumps, etc.) I've heard that 3 weeks is enough to ensure the fish is healthy.... I've heard that a week or less to observe that the fish is eating is sufficient.
I've heard you have to QT coral and inverts so they don't add tomonts from their water to the DT. Iv'e heard you need a separate QT for inverts which means now you're at a QT, a hospital tank and a separate tank to QT your snails, shrimp, corals, AND a DT - gosh, now my living room is getting really crowded. I'm also doing water tests on four tanks, plus water changes and diagnosing, medicating and dipping if anything goes wrong (when do I go to work?).
I've heard that the tank has to be the size that your fish will require for their final home (roughly same as DT), I've heard that 20 gallons for 6 weeks won't kill a tang (unsure on the size of that Tang and I tend the frown here, but eh - what do I know - right, I mean I killed a crap ton of fish in my QT and felt terribly responsible for screwing it up and the fish paid the price.)
Finally, I've heard QT stresses fish and ultimately only marginally reduces risk - so dump them in the perfectly balance water of your DT and hope that your good husbandry and pristine water stability will help the fish fight off whatever it might have (and the rest of the inhabitants too). I've heard that I'm an irresponsible lout that shouldn't be in the hobby because I haven't QT'd - believe it or not from people that later admitted they don't QT because they can just watch a fish for 30 minutes and tell if it is sick.
I'm not trying to say anyone here on THIS thread doesn't know what they are talking about - BUT - for a new person (and even this 18 month old) this makes it extremely disheartening when things go quite wrong in the QT and they seek help. There are more than enough people willing to tell you that what you did was wrong - no matter WHO you chose to listen too.
Just sayin'.
sleepydoc
Team RC
OK. let's get one thing straight - ich isn't caused by stress or lack of happiness or the wrong food. It's caused by by a parasite (cryptocaryon irritans) It can be unmasked by factors that depress a fish's immune system, but if the parasite must be present. Failure to clear an ich infection is due to a failure in treating it properly, not because the fish didn't have enough garlic laced food and prozac.
Long term yes, short term, probably not, depending on the size of the tang and how many other fish are being quarantined at the same time. Most of the fish people buy for their tank are juveniles or young adults, not full grown. This is why people get a hippo tang for their 55 gallon. It's only 2" long and has plenty of room - until it gets to be 12". A 2" hippo tang will probably be just fine in a smaller QT tank for 6 weeks.
Fish_Kid99
New member
Ok im confused. How long do I have to keep the fish in QT? Also do I have to have seperate invert QT tanks?
aleggett321
New member
Just in case you're interested: out of curiosity I posted a poll a couple of weeks ago titled "do you regularly quarantine new fish?" Results were 49% no, 42% yes and 9% sometimes. Just thought it was interesting.
Prairie Reef
New member
Sorry Fish_Kid99 -
That's my point - I don't know, the answers will vary. The most I've seen is 10 weeks disease free. That, however, is hard to do and keep the water stable and healthy since you won't have live rock or CUC or anything other than an air filter to help drive the nitrogen cycle (others will disagree, but perhaps I'm missing something). I've heard others (more commonly) say 4 weeks is "good enough" not perfect but if the fish isn't sick by then, apparently it isn't likely to anyway. I've also heard that a week or two is sufficient to check for symptoms. I'm not trying to discourage, but the info varies widely.
Also - I don't know what the risk is of introducing corals and shrimp and stuff. I suppose the ich could be in the water the shrimp and stuff were in. I've heard people say that unless you QT everything, you might as well QT nothing. I know corals are often QT's to check for things like RTN or AEFW - but they can't be QT'd in a tank that has ever had a copper treatment. So some people will say you need a coral/invert QT, a fish QT, a hospital tank and of course you want to have your DT.
It all depends on your risk level - and how much you want to be 100% positive there is nothing bad going to get in your DT.
100% sure - 10 weeks, separate QT's for fish and coral at minimum, possibly a hospital tank to do dips and meds in - major water changes to keep water clean and healthy - and one fish at a time.
80% sure - 6-8 weeks, separate QT's for fish and coral.
or
80% sure - 3-4 weeks of prophylactic treatment of potential illnesses either with Hypo or with medications.
50%/50% - watch the fish at the store, check for spots, look for clear eye color and intact fins - avoid fish that "flash" on decoration, watch for fish that are gulping or show other signs of distress - hold them in a observation tank for a week to make sure they eat and put them in the DT.
Obviously - at some point I gave up on QT and just bought a batch of fish and put them in the DT. Since I got them all from the same store - they were either all going to sink or swim (so to speak). They all swam luckily. I've since had some fish make it and some fish die, but I've not had a "break out" of anything in the tank. I totally admit I'm rolling the dice on this - and I do REALLY want to QT again, but I lost a lot of fish trying to make it to 10 weeks.
That's my point - I don't know, the answers will vary. The most I've seen is 10 weeks disease free. That, however, is hard to do and keep the water stable and healthy since you won't have live rock or CUC or anything other than an air filter to help drive the nitrogen cycle (others will disagree, but perhaps I'm missing something). I've heard others (more commonly) say 4 weeks is "good enough" not perfect but if the fish isn't sick by then, apparently it isn't likely to anyway. I've also heard that a week or two is sufficient to check for symptoms. I'm not trying to discourage, but the info varies widely.
Also - I don't know what the risk is of introducing corals and shrimp and stuff. I suppose the ich could be in the water the shrimp and stuff were in. I've heard people say that unless you QT everything, you might as well QT nothing. I know corals are often QT's to check for things like RTN or AEFW - but they can't be QT'd in a tank that has ever had a copper treatment. So some people will say you need a coral/invert QT, a fish QT, a hospital tank and of course you want to have your DT.
It all depends on your risk level - and how much you want to be 100% positive there is nothing bad going to get in your DT.
100% sure - 10 weeks, separate QT's for fish and coral at minimum, possibly a hospital tank to do dips and meds in - major water changes to keep water clean and healthy - and one fish at a time.
80% sure - 6-8 weeks, separate QT's for fish and coral.
or
80% sure - 3-4 weeks of prophylactic treatment of potential illnesses either with Hypo or with medications.
50%/50% - watch the fish at the store, check for spots, look for clear eye color and intact fins - avoid fish that "flash" on decoration, watch for fish that are gulping or show other signs of distress - hold them in a observation tank for a week to make sure they eat and put them in the DT.
Obviously - at some point I gave up on QT and just bought a batch of fish and put them in the DT. Since I got them all from the same store - they were either all going to sink or swim (so to speak). They all swam luckily. I've since had some fish make it and some fish die, but I've not had a "break out" of anything in the tank. I totally admit I'm rolling the dice on this - and I do REALLY want to QT again, but I lost a lot of fish trying to make it to 10 weeks.
Prairie Reef
New member
Very interesting - and that is also my point. 49% said they don't "regularly QT" And that doesn't even clarify if they QT for 3 weeks (the recommendation on LiveAquaria I believe) or 4 weeks, or 6 weeks, or 8 weeks, or 10 weeks.
And that is just the fish - what about shrimp, snails, etc. Do you put that water in your tank?
How about corals? What do you do if a fish does get sick? Diagnosis is not easy and the wrong diagnosis give the wrong treatment. Often the fish needs freshwater dips, medication dips, etc. etc.
For the 9% that said "sometimes" I would say that effectively means "never." So now you're looking at 68% no, 42 percent - well, some level of QT.
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