how to stop vodka dosing, leasons learned

eddiereefs

New member
Hey guys ive been dosing vodka in my 29 for a little of a month and i have very mixed reviews on it while it did reduce my nitrates to almost zero it also got some of my fish sick. I latyer learned that carbon dosing can over whelm fishs immune system as they normally fight parisites and bacteria at homeostasis. Also some parisites remain latent in most peoples tanks such as flukes. Well now my goby is breathing hard and ita its not worth it any more. I cut my does in half and nitrate is comming back already, i quickly discovered carbon dosing is just a mask if it really removed nitrate then it wouldnt just come back in two days. Do u guys think i should just stop or try to ween off of it? Any insite is praised thanks.
 
One Possibility:

That bacterial growth is using oxygen for its metabolic needs, so the fish may not have enough for their needs. Symptoms are breathing at the surface, fast breathing or even sudden death. Some fish will succumb to low O faster than others.

This is why a good properly tuned skimmer is vital - you want as much of that bacteria in the skimmer cup, not the tank. If you think this is your issue I would dial back or cease the dosing pronto and make sure your surface agitation is at its max, run the skimmer of course, don't let the tank temperature run too high. If it's an emergency a water change couldn't hurt. I've described an extreme example that would be fairly rare, but its possible.
 
Yeah that one is interesting. It would have to be the impurities in the carbon source itself, a bad batch of vodka or something.

But yes you are correct it is a mask indeed.
 
Dosing carbon doesn't magically remove nitrates. It provides a carbon source that is used, along with nitrate, phosphate and other molecules in the water, by single celled algae and bacteria to grow. Those microorganisms can then be removed via a protein skimmer. When there is more nitrate than organically available carbon in the water then the nitrate is the limiting agent, the bacteria/algae grow until all the carbon is used up leaving nitrate. All you do with carbon dosing is add extra carbon so that the rest of the nitrate can be used.

I've never heard of this having any effect on a fish's immune system and frankly I can't see how it would. If you were using a toxic carbon source that could cause issues but it's not the fact that there is extra carbon in the water that's doing it. Low dissolved oxygen levels sounds like a likely culprit though.

Stopping carbon dosing will lead to an increase in nitrate if you keep the same bioload and feed the same amount as you did before you started. The carbon dosing only allows the nitrate to be assimilated into living organisms that can then be skimmed out.
 
I started dosing for a while on my 29 in the beginning I then slowly quit. I only dose about a 1/3 of a ml lowest dose for a few days every couple weeks.
 
How is it a mask? It's a way to remove nitrates. If that is a mask then water changes are a mask, everything is a mask, you might as well just keep a hermetically sealed glass container of sterilized seawater :p
 
It's masking a problem of imbalance. You don't need to carbon dose, there are other ways to to solve nitrate problems.

Water changes should keep your nitrates at normal levels.

If your nitrates are high, your bio-load is too high. -most people this is the cause, overstocking their tanks. Every fish list I've seen posted on these forums (for a complete stocking list) I'd say is too high.

There are other solutions, refugiums, nitrate reactors.. I think carbon dosing should be a last resort... i'd remove fish first.
 
ok guys trust me its not the brand or tainted vodka, i use 6 times distilled. i have spent countless hours studying carbon dosing and have read some interesteing studies as well. here is a germane qoute
"So what possible consequences could there be? Simply, the bacteria themselves. Since there are a great many bacterial strains within our aquariums at any given time, any addition of carbon sources are going to be of benefit to all bacterial strains. Not just the desirable denitrifying strains. This is what all the proponents of this method fail to mention or consider.
A clue to this being a problem can be found in the study of fish bacterial diseases. Since there can be, and usually is, a great many strains of bacteria in our aquariums, at normal day to day levels, the fishes own immune system is capable of keeping the bacteria at bay. When an overload of nutrients drives the bacterial count up, the fish are unable to ward them off anymore and they can become overwhelmed and infected. The bacterial "pop eye" disease is a good example. Look up the treatment plan for this disease and you will find it recommended to do large water changes and get your nutrient controls in place, when done, the fish, due to the reduced bacterial presence will recover on its own.
This very same result is a very real danger to corals as well. Adding a carbon source (sugar or vodka) to your reef aquarium's water will drive up ALL bacterial counts, which while some strains are busy at denitrifying your water, other strains will be busy trying to infect your livestock. While a healthy coral or fish may be able to ward off initial large scale attacks, and is probably the reason some will claim having obtained great results with this method with no "damage" done. All they achieved was dodging a bullet, this time. Keep on adding sugar or vodka, and sooner or later, a coral or fish is not going to be at its optimal health and become infected and possibly die. Just the act of dosing such substances could very well cause the fish or coral to become more susceptible to this method over time. Having to expend energy and the stresses placed upon its immune system, will sooner or later catch up with it.
Please, Do not be tempted by fads, "new" methods and just plain bad science in an attempt to somehow get around the basics of aquarium reef keeping. Water changes, proper feeding, lighting and stocking levels will take you much farther with a great less risk."(charles and linda raabe) http://www.chucksaddiction.com/dosingsugar.html

what happened to me was exactly what he and many have talked about, my clownfish got sick idk with what but i treated with formalin. he had a lump on his chin and fluke on his gills. my fish have NEVER been sick until i have added carbon, in simple terms their immune system fought it off because conditions were ideal. our tanks have all sorts of pathogens and bacteria that have been introduced by spores of introduction of new fish or inverts that were hosts. but when you dose carbon you cant pick the bacteria that you want.
 
...what happened to me was exactly what he and many have talked about, my clownfish got sick idk with what but i treated with formalin. he had a lump on his chin and fluke on his gills. my fish have NEVER been sick until i have added carbon, in simple terms their immune system fought it off because conditions were ideal. our tanks have all sorts of pathogens and bacteria that have been introduced by spores of introduction of new fish or inverts that were hosts. but when you dose carbon you cant pick the bacteria that you want.

Carbon dosing encourages the growth of bacteria that use organic compounds not those that cause disease. FWIW, I'm calling BS. Neither is carbon dosing a mask. It is a viable way to manage nutrients.

It is possible that dissolved O2 levels were depleted if a large enough bacterial bloom occurred, but the carbon dosing had nothing to do with reduce immune systems to encourage pathogens. Oh... as I'm not a scientist... IMO!
 
Carbon dosing encourages the growth of bacteria that use organic compounds not those that cause disease. FWIW, I'm calling BS. Neither is carbon dosing a mask. It is a viable way to manage nutrients.

It is possible that dissolved O2 levels were depleted if a large enough bacterial bloom occurred, but the carbon dosing had nothing to do with reduce immune systems to encourage pathogens. Oh... as I'm not a scientist... IMO!

I agree that low O2 level would be my first guess as the cause of dead fish and carbon dosing. But...

Bacteria that cause disease in humans and fish may also live like non-disease causing bacteria in aquariums. Carbon dosing can spur the growth of disease forming bacteria. Both fresh and salt water aquariums can harbor disease causing bacteria - proven through DNA analysis.

Don't drink aquarium water and do wash your hands after aquarium maintenance.
 
Carbon dosing can spur the growth of disease forming bacteria. Both fresh and salt water aquariums can harbor disease causing bacteria - proven through DNA analysis.

Don't drink aquarium water and do wash your hands after aquarium maintenance.

I know there are pathogens in the aquarium but I'd be interested in someone explaining how carbon spurs their growth. I'm asking because I don't know and just can't wrap my head around the idea.

In response to the OP's problem, I wonder if maybe vodka is too strong a carbon source for a small tank. Vinegar might be better. It is not a concentrated and small measurement errors or variances would not be as problematic.
 
In response to the OP's problem, I wonder if maybe vodka is too strong a carbon source for a small tank. Vinegar might be better.

Good point. What was the dosing schedule (quantity and frequency)? What kind of flow did you have in the DT and what skimmer are you using?
 
I was only up to 1 ml a day i have to rw 4s and am using an eshopps psk75 and its pulling about half a cup a day of sludge. And u may have misunderstood its not carbon spuring the growth its the fishs immume system weakining because of all the extra bacteria, i explained everything in my earlier posts, read the link i posted.
 
Carbon dosing, gfo, ats are all masks of not removing the sources of inorganic nutrients, detritus. Control how much detritus is in the system and you control the inorganic nutrient load.
 
I only did it because i tried everything, gfo refugium weekly water changes etc. I only have 3 fish and never overfeed, the shrimp eats any left overs. In fact the tank has never looked better but i know my fish are struggling.
 
I've gotta think something else is going on personally. I have been carbon dosing for years as well as a lot of people here including one of the most contributing scientists the hobby has, So I guess we are all doing it wrong then.

It may not be the right option for your tank/setup but I can without a doubt say it has greatly increased my tanks ability to process large amounts of food I feed the fish = healthier/happier fish and in my case/opinion the corals health/growth/color that I strive for and care more about.

But then again that's just my opinion just as your opinion is what it is =).. Is it only the one link ( granted I did not read it) or is it wide spread info or opinions I'm just not aware of? .

I don't see how adding a carbon source for nitrifiying bacteria to consume would affect the fish at all unless it's grossly overdosed or the system is not capable to remove the increased bacteria or dealing with a bloom. I'll check out the link though just to see what your seeing.
 
Back
Top