How to treat gill flukes?

While Prazi does not kill a fluke on contact it does cause muscular contractions to wit within a couple of minutes to a couple of hours ( depending on fluke size) the haptors will release the integumentary. The fluke continues to spasm while still exposed to Prazi and it dies within 12-14 hours.
 
once a fish is allowed to get the 'upper hand', and it's own natural defenses are back up to par, it will usually resist re-infestation on it's own. the key word here is USUALLY. but rest assured you most definitely have flukes present in your tank-most can sustain themselves quite easily on leftover foods you feed your fish-mysis and other seafoods in particular. they don't have to feed on a fish, as far as most of the ones we come across with.

A fish with flukes will, in most cases, die without treatment. In fact, usually by the time it reaches the eyes it's too late.
 
i'm not sure why you quoted my statement:

"once a fish is allowed to get the 'upper hand', and it's own natural defenses are back up to par, it will usually resist re-infestation on it's own. the key word here is USUALLY. but rest assured you most definitely have flukes present in your tank-most can sustain themselves quite easily on leftover foods you feed your fish-mysis and other seafoods in particular. they don't have to feed on a fish, as far as most of the ones we come across with."

and then followed it with this:


A fish with flukes will, in most cases, die without treatment. In fact, usually by the time it reaches the eyes it's too late.

could you clarify what you think one statement has to do w/ the other? i made no mention or recommendation of NOT treating for flukes, or assertions about what would happen to a fish if not treated, so i'm a bit confused as to why you placed my statement w/ yours :)
 
I am disputing your assertion that a fish's "natural defense" can repel flukes. Re-infestation or otherwise. If flukes are present in a system, a fish will usually succumb to them.
 
While Prazi does not kill a fluke on contact it does cause muscular contractions to wit within a couple of minutes to a couple of hours ( depending on fluke size) the haptors will release the integumentary. The fluke continues to spasm while still exposed to Prazi and it dies within 12-14 hours.


hikari's prazipro comes w/a recommended dose of 2.5 ppm, iirc. at that dose, i've not seen it *kill* 'larger' flukes (about 1/2 the size of a typical sesame seed and bigger). at higher doses, quite possibly-i've read reports recommending dosages as high as 10ppm for absolute eradication/100% effective kill level. a fw dip *kills* flukes in a matter of 10 minutes or less, for even the more stubborn adults-it's far faster as an 'absolute' 'flukacide'. which imo makes it a far superior option.

having said that, my personal preference is for fw dips, which are just as effective, if not faster, at *killing* flukes outright as prazi (i have an aversion to using any medication when a fw dip will work, for various reasons, one being the effects of fw dipping against multiple pathogens/parasites).

any fish i've owned that i dipped in fw en route to my own tanks, or customer's tanks has never developed flukes (clinically observable infestation) even when coming from systems (the lfs's, wholesalers) known to be rampant w/ them. it got to a point where i began offering dipping in fw to any customer buying a sw fish at the last lfs i worked at. especially after seeing that over 90% of ALL imported fish landing at lax had flukes, regardless of the country of origin, although brazil and africa were the worst 'offenders' (personal observation).

i've received shipments of queen angels from brazil that arrived at lax WHITE from flukes coating their entire body-after treating w/prazi per hikari's 'bath' recommendation, flukes still remained on some of the fish-such was not the case when i used fw dipping.

there also seems to be some reported instances where there may be flukes appearing that are 'mildly resistant' to prazi-whether or not that's true, i'm not sure-but it wouldn't surprise me-especially if exporter/importers are treating 'prophylactically' for too short a time period before shipout.

so for all of the above reasons, i'll always stick to mah guhns re: fw dips vs prazi as the best practice method for knocking out flukes

(just my 0.02 :) )
 
I am disputing your assertion that a fish's "natural defense" can repel flukes. Re-infestation or otherwise. If flukes are present in a system, a fish will usually succumb to them.

flukes are pretty much present in just about every system on the planet, heh. ALL fish coming from ALL importer/wholesalers come from systems w/flukes in them-this is easily proven/observed-by extension, all lfs's have flukes in their systems (as well as crypto)-by extension, ALL fish purchased likely have at least a fluke or two on them when purchased. yet, not ALL fish succumb to flukes, or crypto-some can carry flukes their entire lives w/ no easily observable signs, until something else major happens to a system (over pollution, rapid fluctuations in temp, etc). others don't-it's usually a function of that individual fish's ability to fight off 'x' number/concentration of a given pathogen vs another fish's different level of ability to do so.

dipping a fish or q-ing them does NOT remove the pathogen from the main system-yet for most, they won't get re-infested after a treatment. MANY people and operations have verified this through experience. you can accept this, or not-but it's a baseless assertion due solely to personal opinion on your part, afaic.

it's been my experience that once a fish has flukes removed, whether it be by fw dips or prazi, that they will not come down w/them again, unless the system they're in experiences severe mismanagement in the form of lots of uneaten food/rot in the system, etc etc.. pollution in the form of organics/rot and overcrowding has been a very well known and documented trigger/aid for fluke 'outbreaks' for decades.

i've verified this w/treating over 10's of thousands of fish over decades in both lfs's,wholesalers, and my own tanks.

i've SEEN fish infested w/flukes while the same species in a tank next to them on the same system aren't affected at all. AT ALL.

do you think fish don't live w/flukes and 'manage'/co-exist w/them in the wild? surely there must be plenty of fish on the reef w/flukes-most arrive here w/them, so they had to come from somewhere, yah?-yet you don't see them dying in droves covered in flukes in the wild-same for crypto-many fish will be seen in the wild w/ a spot or two-they fight it and shake it off quite often-it's usually the weak, old, or infirm (for other reasons) fish that succumb to those ectoparasites eventually.
 
Prazi is all I've ever used to clear a fish of gill flukes (confirmed both before & after via f/w dip). If what you are saying is true, my DT should be infested with flukes and all of my fish should have died years ago.


i think this post is particularly relevant here:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16636781&postcount=390

"More insidous are smaller gill and skin flukes (you cannot see these in the FW dip bucket without a microscope or at least a hand lens)."

maybe you'll believe someone else if you don't believe me?

that entire thread is well worth a read-might be one of the BEST threads on flukes/treatments on RC

i'd pay special attention to what Bill'sreef has to say throughout the thread re: fw dipping :)
 
hikari's prazipro comes w/a recommended dose of 2.5 ppm, iirc. at that dose, i've not seen it *kill* 'larger' flukes (about 1/2 the size of a typical sesame seed and bigger). at higher doses, quite possibly-i've read reports recommending dosages as high as 10ppm for absolute eradication/100% effective kill level. a fw dip *kills* flukes in a matter of 10 minutes or less, for even the more stubborn adults-it's far faster as an 'absolute' 'flukacide'. which imo makes it a far superior option.

having said that, my personal preference is for fw dips, which are just as effective, if not faster, at *killing* flukes outright as prazi (i have an aversion to using any medication when a fw dip will work, for various reasons, one being the effects of fw dipping against multiple pathogens/parasites).

any fish i've owned that i dipped in fw en route to my own tanks, or customer's tanks has never developed flukes (clinically observable infestation) even when coming from systems (the lfs's, wholesalers) known to be rampant w/ them. it got to a point where i began offering dipping in fw to any customer buying a sw fish at the last lfs i worked at. especially after seeing that over 90% of ALL imported fish landing at lax had flukes, regardless of the country of origin, although brazil and africa were the worst 'offenders' (personal observation).

i've received shipments of queen angels from brazil that arrived at lax WHITE from flukes coating their entire body-after treating w/prazi per hikari's 'bath' recommendation, flukes still remained on some of the fish-such was not the case when i used fw dipping.

there also seems to be some reported instances where there may be flukes appearing that are 'mildly resistant' to prazi-whether or not that's true, i'm not sure-but it wouldn't surprise me-especially if exporter/importers are treating 'prophylactically' for too short a time period before shipout.

so for all of the above reasons, i'll always stick to mah guhns re: fw dips vs prazi as the best practice method for knocking out flukes

(just my 0.02 :) )

I'm not going to argue the validity of Prazi with you. If you look at any posts I've written on flukes you will see that I advise for FW dips first. I use them on all new fish for the same reasons as you. But some people are not as comfortable/adept at performing them.
I was one person that stated Prazi was not 100% effective against one species of neobenedenia. This was based on a scientific study done in Japan in August 2013. It was also my experience. To the point I had to use formalin.
That being said Prazi has been scientifically proven (hundreds of studies) to eliminate flukes from a fish's flesh and eventually die from uncontrollable spasms. It is still a viable option for aquarists dealing with flukes.
 
I'm not going to argue the validity of Prazi with you. If you look at any posts I've written on flukes you will see that I advise for FW dips first. I use them on all new fish for the same reasons as you. But some people are not as comfortable/adept at performing them.
I was one person that stated Prazi was not 100% effective against one species of neobenedenia. This was based on a scientific study done in Japan in August 2013. It was also my experience. To the point I had to use formalin.
That being said Prazi has been scientifically proven (hundreds of studies) to eliminate flukes from a fish's flesh and eventually die from uncontrollable spasms. It is still a viable option for aquarists dealing with flukes.

+1 The problem with FW dips is not every fish responds well to that. Just recently, I had to hold a MI upright for over an hour because he couldn't regain his equilibrium after a dip. A 5 minute dip, mind you. And I know in the past I've killed more than a few fish by doing a dip. By comparison, I've yet to suffer any causalities while doing Prazi. Sure, the fish may stop eating for a few days with Prazi but that's it. Can you imagine us telling every noob that asks about a fish with flukes to do a round of FW or formalin dips??
 
i've yet to see a fish react poorly to a properly done dip, regardless of how badly it *appears* to be acting while dipping-thousands and thousands of fish dipped so far, and not ONE loss from dipping. the losses i've had were later attributed to the damage already incurred by the fish to have been too great for the fish or the dip to overcome. (things like gill clubbing from ammonia burn during shipping, etc etc)

and i've taught plenty of 'noobs' how to do it, w/no hassles - they usually come back amazed after seeing a sw fish they own post fw dipping-i've had fish eat, and fight w/each other during dips-most don't even seem to care after the initial 'shock' reaction :)

it's not that difficult, and really not that stressful for fish-it's more an issue of the preconceived notions of the hobbyist of it being 'wrong', 'un-natural' and 'stressful'. i think the dipper usually is far more stressed than the fish is, heh.

a dip is far less stressful than whatever a fish is going through as the result of a pathogen's attacks on 'it's person' - that logic alone is often enough to have convinced most of my past 'doubting thomas' clientele ;)

even fairy wrasses, notorious for appearing to 'wig out' both during a dip and after returning to sw are absolutely fine a few hrs later, no worse for the wear.

so yeah, i can well imagine telling everyone how wonderful and easy fw dipping is-as i mentioned in an earlier post-i used to just pluck fish out of tanks at random at the last lfs i worked at, and placed them into a spec cup of pH/temp matched fw-just to make the very point of what a big deal it *isn't*. then i'd feed them while in the spec cup, and show the customer the skin flukes that would fall off-made a convert every.single.time.

maybe it's partly that i've some years experience in commercial fish farming, and tend to anthropomorphize fish less than hobbyists who relate to them only as pets-for the most part, they're no different than any other farmed livestock, as far as treatments go.

i think your statement is partly prejudicial, and a tad defeatist-how do you know how noobs would react if you don't try because you *assume* they won't take, or react well, to your advice?

if a fish 'loses it's equilibrium' from a dip-you *prob'ly* did it wrong (note that i said 'prob'ly', not 'definitely') -and you can just leave it lying on the substrate-it will recover fine all by itself. no reason to hold it, other than *your* self imposed opinion that you need to, afaict/ime. but i'll wager that something was off re: the parameter match that IS necessary-could be a pH diff too great due to an inaccurate test kit, etc etc.

i've dipped fish shortly after being kept in a styro box for 2-3 days after landing in water w/a pH of below 6, and at temp below 68º, then getting tanked into a system pumped w/CO2 to allow proper pH acclimation and internal ammonia release"¦.

surely a fish who just went through all of that is in far worse shape for dipping than one who's already arrived at an lfs through the typical chain of custody? certainly in worse shape than after being in a hobbyists's tank? yet 99% or better have never died as a result of the dip itself. given that fairly large difference in the 'pre dip condition' of most hobbyists's fishes, i'd say that's even more reason to recommend it as an absolutely safe and recommended 'best practice'.

just my 0.02 :)
 
+1 The problem with FW dips is not every fish responds well to that. Just recently, I had to hold a MI upright for over an hour because he couldn't regain his equilibrium after a dip. A 5 minute dip, mind you. And I know in the past I've killed more than a few fish by doing a dip. By comparison, I've yet to suffer any causalities while doing Prazi. Sure, the fish may stop eating for a few days with Prazi but that's it. Can you imagine us telling every noob that asks about a fish with flukes to do a round of FW or formalin dips??

Agreed! Prazi is another tool in the toolbox and it obviously has worked with lots of aquarists.
 
Blenny is showing no more signs of flukes after 4 days w/treatment, should i continue and dose tommarow? Is it possible that the one dose would eliminate the flukes?
 
Blenny is showing no more signs of flukes after 4 days w/treatment, should i continue and dose tommarow? Is it possible that the one dose would eliminate the flukes?

More than likely no. In the saltwater aquaria hobby we deal with primarily 4 species of flukes. Three are live bearing and one is oviparous (egg laying). The later is the neobenedenia and it is a pain! I would do a water change and dose again in a day or 2. You may even have to do a third round.
Glad the Blenny is doing better. Is it eating ok?
 
How to treat gill flukes?

More than likely no. In the saltwater aquaria hobby we deal with primarily 4 species of flukes. Three are live bearing and one is oviparous (egg laying). The later is the neobenedenia and it is a pain! I would do a water change and dose again in a day or 2. You may even have to do a third round.
Glad the Blenny is doing better. Is it eating ok?

Eating great, loves food more than anyone else and let me tell you, when they see the turkey baster they go nuts! I will somtimes blow sand of the rock and him and the YWMG will attack it wanting food lol. Hes very active and never hides, always swimming around or chilling out on one of his 5 claimed rocks.
 
Don't be too alarmed at this point. As the fish's skin heals they will scratch (like we do). This can go on for months. My goby still occasionally scratches and he's been back in the main for 4 months. I know he doesn't have any parasites because a marine biologist I know did a skin scrape and a fin clip...no flukes or eggs. And no one else in the tank is scratching. If at any point you are really concerned you can do a FW dip on the Blenny.
 
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