hyposalinity cures marine ick or well this sucks

[Steveb]

Tank developed a case of Cryptocaryon irritans (due to lack of QT on my part...). Moved all the fish to a hospital tank tried Quinine Hydrochloride for two weeks - didn't work - used activated carbon and some water changes to remove it over several days and then proceeded to try hyposalinity.

Began lowering salinity to 1.010 over a three day period w/water changes. I also used Sea Chem Marine Buffer to help maintain ph at 8.3.

Within one day of my sg being at 1.010 the male yellow tail flasher wrasse and the the rainford's goby began doing torpedo rolls in the water and then kicked the bucket, a day later the two pajama cardinals kicked the bucket and this morning the female yellow tail flasher wrasse was dead.

Now that all of the fish are dead I can say with absolute certainty that hyposalinity will cure an out-break of marine ick. It just may not do it in the manner expected. :sad2:

All of these fish where eating and behaving normally (less than 10 white spots where on the two wrasses only - no spots on any of the others but I wanted to make sure) in the display tank prior to all of this.

All of the fish where eating while being treated with Quinine Hydrocholoride.

All of the fish quit eating once sg reached 1.010.

Hospital tank did have an active biological filter (I was at least smart enough to keep some filter pads in the sump of the display tank) and an ammonia badge (showing normal) in the tank so I don't think that was an issue - although I haven't tested that yet - I am going to test Ammonia,Nitrite this afternoon. Tank is bare bottom, used ro/di water for salt mixes, also had an air stone going. Performed 3 gallon water changes every evening once sp was 1.010.

Lessons Learned:
1) Quarantine Everything Period before going into DT (not sure what I am going to do when something does appear).

2) Quinine Hydrochloride does no appear to work - or since there is no hobby test kit to measure true amount in solution there is no way you can be sure you are at target dosage

3) I don't know what to think of hyposalinity... other than it is a fish killer (I checked water 2x daily (morning and after evening water change with refractometer)).

So now I am pondering all of the above while the display tank sits fallow for the next six weeks.

Any thoughts??????

 

[Stuart60611]

Quinine Hydrochloride is by far the least effective and most harsh of the quinine drugs. Chrloroquine phosphate is far more effective and less harsh. Your fish could have died from the Quinine and not the bypo.

 

[Steveb]

My bad Quinine Sulfate - http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/products4.html#Q

I was under the impression from The Marine Fish Health and Feeding Handbook the Quinine products where relatively safe if used as directed..

The fish where eating and acting normal while I was treating w/Quinine Sulfate for the two weeks I had it in the tank. I am pretty sure I had it all out before I began to lower the sg since I ran activated carbon for 3 days plus changed 50% of the water daily over that same time period.

 

[Stuart60611]

My bad Quinine Sulfate - http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/products4.html#Q

I was under the impression from The Marine Fish Health and Feeding Handbook the Quinine products where relatively safe if used as directed..

The fish where eating and acting normal while I was treating w/Quinine Sulfate for the two weeks I had it in the tank. I am pretty sure I had it all out before I began to lower the sg since I ran activated carbon for 3 days plus changed 50% of the water daily over that same time period.

Well, quinine sulfate is the second worst of the quinine drugs. It is also pretty harsh and not nearly as effective as chloroquine phostphate. The Marine Fish Health and Feeding Handbook does not recommend any quinine drugs other than chloroquine phosphate (pgs. 146-147). Public aquaria only use chlorquine phosphate when employing quinine drugs both because it is far more effective and not nearly as harsh as the other two. When you dose quinine drugs the fish injest the quinine which stays in their bodies for days thereafter. As such, the fact that you may have removed the drug from the water in no way means that the fish still are not medicated for some time thereafter. Also, you often have to treat with the quinine drugs for the entire life cycle of the parasite (1 month) to assure erradication. Droping to hypo levels while so medicated could be why your fish died. Also, wrasses generally do not do well with hypo to begin with which could also be a reason why your fish died.

 

[Steveb]

Thanks for the info. So what would be recommended for QT (see I am learning ) if I see crypto and I am QT'ing wrasses?

 

[Steveb]

Cupramine?

 

[Steveb]

Can chloroquine phosphate (Aralen) be obtained w/out a Dr. RX?

 

[scubasteve06]

I would have just gone to the LFS or ordered some cupramine if they were behaving relatively normal.

 

[Stuart60611]

Cupramine is the most tried and reliable treatment for crypt, but it can very harsh (although by far the least harsh of the copper treatments) on fish and some believe can cause permanent organ damage. As such, you need to ramp up to treatment strength very slowly and carefully monitor your fish and test for copper levels frequently. Chloroquine phosphate can be obtained only in bulk as a kilo without a prescription from a company called Fishman Chemicals for $125, plus shiping. A kilo is going to last a real long time, and you will have plenty left over (needs to be stored in dry low light area b/c chemical is sensitive to light). Fishman Chemicals, and directions for dosing chloroquine phosphate can be found below (note: I am not sure it is mentioned, but you need to keep your lights as low as possible when treating with chloroquine).

http://www.fishchemical.com/

http://www.kevintaylor.ws/tag/chloroquine-phosphate/

 

[Steveb]

Thx - appreciate all the info

 

[RBU1]

What did you use to measure your salinity?

 

[Steveb]

refractometer 2x daily

 

[Steveb]

How should the change from normal SG down to hypo be? I have read going back up it can only change .002 every 24 hours - does it need to go down that way as well?

 

[rayn]

Don't use cupramine ona wrasse. I learned the hard way. Withing two days he was dead after adding cupramine. They apparently don't handle copper well.

 

[fishyness]

I am currently running 2 tanks hypo and my fish have adjusted very well. I read somewhere you cant mix cures, meds and hypo. They have been in for 9 days now and no ich is visible anymore. so far so good.....

 

[Steveb]

Yeah I think assuming 3 days was enough to clear the meds from the fish's system was a mistake.

Anyone have any thoughts on the correct way to decrease salinity?

 

[MechEng99]

I've been running three QT tanks on hyposalinity for a month now with 3 Wanatabe Angels, a Splendid Leopard Wrasse, a Crosshatch Goby, two Chromis, and a Mandarin Goby. I brought my salinity down over 3 days (can go much faster on the way down than on the way back up.) I read somewhere to remove 10% of the water and replace with RO each day, and on the third day it'll be pretty close...and then go really really slow the last few points down to 1.010.

I decided to use hyposalinity after regular QT didn't catch crypt...so I lost a tang, angel, and goby. The leopard wrasse and two stupid chromis survived long enough for me to start running hyposalinity. Thumbs up for hypo so far!

When was the last time you calibrated your refractometer...and how quickly did you decrease your salinity?

 

[dohc97]

Hypo has not done a thing for me the 2 times i used it, instead i ended up with dead fish. For the first time i went and tried cupramine, So far i am on day 7 of the treatment and have not lost a fish to ich or copper. As long as my fish make it out of treatment and are healthy i will be sold on using cupramine for qt purposes before adding to display. By the way i do have a wrasse in the cupramine that is not showing ill effects.

 

[Jstdv8]

Cuprimine for the win! add fish, let them get used to thier surroundings for a day or two. add first part of cuprimine to the QT, wait 48 hours add the second part, check for .5 copper. watch for ammonia spikes and when you do water changes be sure to add back in the right amount of copper for the water you are removing and recheck the parameters after the water has been kicking around in there for a while.
I found the cuprimine to be the easiest thing Ive done in this hobby and the fish acted very normal the entire time they were in there.

 

[Steveb]

When was the last time you calibrated your refractometer...and how quickly did you decrease your salinity?

Calibrated with RO/DI water just last week - I need to either make my own or order the 53 mS/cm calibration fluid made by American Marine since it looks like using RO/DI can give a false sg reading leading to a lower sq than 1.010 according to this article http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-12/rhf/index.php .

I lowered the sg over three days.