I detest politics...

I do agree, invasive sps or exotic can be a problem, but not all are invasive, not all pose a disease or a habitat issue. Everything evolves and changes with time, I do not think we can stop it. I am a lot more concerned about the steriods they pump into our food chain along with all the nasty organo-phosphates they say are okay for our foods, and the gas guzzeling cars they make, but it is all based on economics and is another story.....

I just am not happy with basically not being represented here... the ASC is, and even encourages people to send money in to suport their cause, we are told no right off the bat, with no thought to it, and told there is no money to look into updating the list. PLUS the fact it is okay for the protected fish to be fished for,and there is not problem with that, but a big issue with the fish in my aquarium?

and I dare say it wil not stop there guys, there is talk about restoring the american eel, then what after that? There will be other habitats, other disease issues, and possibly /probably less fish or pets you can own.

As the world population and demands grow, it is ineveitable that all sps will get pushed to the edge and infringed upon, it happens every day, it's evolution. Look at what happened to the american indians

Education is the key to preservation

I better stop, I am starting to ramble, sorry :rolleye1:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7896487#post7896487 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ME2003
DIF&W stance on bears, coyotes, and wolves are more examples. It is not about the managing the environment. It is providing game and fish for sportsman.
Click to expand...

If it weren't for DIF&W, their rules & laws, and hunters managing these species Maine would be overrun with nuisance animals. I wonder who would be the first one to complain that bears, coyotes, and wolves are eating their dogs and cats? I can attest to the fact that DIF&W is not run by SAM, and I have no idea where you got that idea, but it is entirely untrue.

I agree with both sides of the "fish list" argument. I believe that responsible hobbyists should be allowed to keep species of fish that are non-native to Maine, but there are always idiots who ruin it for everyone. It's the same with responsible gun owners, responsible drivers, etc. Laws weren't made for responsible people. Unfortunately, it is those responsible people who are restricted by stupid laws meant to stop people that don't follow the law anyway!
 
EXACTLY! Well said. The current laws only restrict those hobbyists who actually OBEY the laws! I agree that tank bred and raised is THE way to go but.......... what about tank raised Jack Demseys or Koi in the state of Maine? They aren't on the list, they aren't allowed, period. No permits or changes in the list anticipated in the near future. Meanwhile...... anyone who chooses to keep illegal fish need just to go over the border to NH and obtain and KEEP fish NOT on the list. Coyotes, bears, wolves; horse of a different color entirely. I don't think you'll hear ANYONE protest that coyotes are in any way shape or form GOOD for the environment. But, by the same token I don't know ANYONE who would want to own one either. Making laws that don't make sense and that can't be enforced for whatever reason need not to be made. If a species is known to cause a problem for native wildlife then control who can keep it and under what conditions. I don't agree that unscrupulous hobbyists are the main way invasive species get into native bodies of water. I think sportsmen have been a bigger force for this to happen. I gave the example of white perch in I believe Moosehead lake. Milfoil was also introduced the same way. I think sometimes the release is inadvertant when storm drains become flooded and raw sewage is released. Anyway, if laws are passed then lawmakers have a responsibility to fund them so honest, responsible hobbyists are able to keep any fish that NH and MA can. Sue
 
" I can attest to the fact that DIF&W is not run by SAM"
Prove it.

SAM wanted a salmon season SAM got a salmon season.
I believe most fisherman did not want one or did not care.
"nuisance animals" is an example of their bias.
DIF&W provides a service of regulating hunting and fishing.
This is a needed service. They are not the agency needed
to manage the environment. The bear scare campaign is another example. You would think after seeing their commercials thousands of bears were going to descend on cities killing all the cats and dogs. The law was about regulating a type of bear hunting not eliminating management. I am a fisherman and not antihunting.
DIF&W represents the views of a few SAM fisherman not most Maine fisherman. The same may be true for hunting also.
 
Oh Heck you guys, the whole point is that I as a fish lover and hobbyist have to prove that no one can or will sabotage my aquariums and release the fishes into the waters of the salmon, obviously no one cares about the rest of the waters and fishes of Maine I guess.....and that no one has the time to do their job.. as a civilian employee, I 'would be FIRED if I said that to a customer! And maybe after all it should be some else's job,( again, something as a civilian employee I could never say!), someone a bit more un-biased, if that can happen in the state government......

I hate to see trash and tires and mattresses thrown with in feet of a dump.....I wonder what the fine is for that compared to owning an 'illegal' fish...? Man when someone flicks a but out the window, doesn't it BURN my BUTT......I like a clean lake and environment too, however I do not think that even if a fish, bird or frog did get released, survived and thrived, it would dirty the environment, isn't it survival of the fittest and strongest anyway? It might change the environment and I know change is not always agreeable to everyone, but is is almost inevitable.......life evolves and changes constantly.

BTW, who is at the top of the food chain, I am guessing wolves over coyotes and bears.. they form an association and there is security in numbers.......Don't black bears tend to scavenge and eat berries? Now Kodiak and grizzly are a bear of another color!

The fact is , the name of the agency pretty much tells it all, and money is at the root of all . It is their job to provide for sportsmen , and tourists ($$$) by making wildlife (native only) available to them .

Here I go again... I cannot help myself, it is the wine talking tonight SOMEONE HELP ME!?:beer: :beer: BTW The smilies list should offer toasts with wine glasses, I protest that too!
 
I encourage anyone who cares about fishing or the environment not to support SAM. I would take the survey because it will help SAM direct the DIF&W on what to do. SAM has a role to play in representing hunters in the state of Maine. I think that is a good idea. Here are some issue that many fisherman and others have with SAM.

1. They spend to much time and effort fighting Gun control issues.
Many fisherman have differing opinions and don't like all their
dues spent on this. If they wanted this, they would join the NRA.

2. In conflicts between hunting and fishing issues, hunting gets
priority.

3. They have a tendency to support the two Maine propaganda.
For example, the view anyone that lives south of Bangor does
not understand hunting, fishing or environmental issues.

Their view of the environment is biased towards hunters. It should be. It is the group they represent. SAM is aware of these issue and
has given some thought about change. There are also groups that
better represent fisherman and I believe I read and article about a new group starting. I will see if I can find it.
An interesting item from the survey is the splake question.
This is where DIF&W introduces a nonindigenous hybird to
waters across Maine. Ironic.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7907920#post7907920 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ME2003


1. They spend to much time and effort fighting Gun control issues.
Many fisherman have differing opinions and don't like all their
dues spent on this. If they wanted this, they would join the NRA.

2. In conflicts between hunting and fishing issues, hunting gets
priority.

3. They have a tendency to support the two Maine propaganda.
For example, the view anyone that lives south of Bangor does
not understand hunting, fishing or environmental issues.
Click to expand...

It is strange to me that this is all you think SAM is about. It is also obvious to me that you really don't know too much about SAM at all, which is typical of non-members of any organization. It seems you have no problem bashing SAM because of your opinion, but can't recognize the many good things they have done in their 31 year history.
I should say in respect to full disclosure, I am the office manager at the Sportsman's Alliance of Maine...heck, I may even know you. I have no intention of getting into any more of a confrontation with anyone here about SAM. I encourage you to learn more about SAM and their mission, and hope that through your research you realize that SAM is not all about guns, hunting, and "supporting the two Maine propaganda."
Thanks for allowing me to post this, and I promise not to say any more about this particular issue in this forum. :)
 
"I am the office manager at the Sportsman's Alliance of Maine"
What are the odds?

I do know a lot about SAM. I do not consider your views confrontational. Discussion is important in a democracy.
SAM is a very effective group for hunters. I have watched
many Wildfire programs and read alot about SAM.
Ask George what he thinks about Southern Maine or Portland
if you want to know about the two Maine propaganda issue.
I will say that I like the work they have done on boat access
to lakes. It has not helped me but I know a lot of fisherman have this issue. I fish Sebago for Salmon and every year it gets more
difficult to get on the lake early and late in the season.
The last time I tried I was told it would cost me $60 to use the
ramp at the state park before 9 am.
 
Does SAM support the atlantic salmon restoration? I wonder if they are thnkinga bout the american eel?


And I have to wonder how they can prove the lioinfish found in the gulf came from a tank and did not come up with the gulf stream... ?

And there are many fish and other pets raised in the states... I also endorse the idea of NOT exploiting the wildlife of other countries.... captive bred is always better.... and there are MANY sps of freshwater fish bred in the states that are NOT on the list and will NOT be listed NOR permitted if it is in the Atlantic Salmon Restoration area, approximalted 1/3 if the state, if not more! The fact that they will NOT even consider a permit should make one think seriously about this issue...

Denise
 
It is always hard to determine what is right and wrong when several different groups of people are interested in an issue. It will always be a constant tug and pull from each side with neither ever satisfied that their goals were accomplished.

Reguardless, most people will do whatever the heck they want to anyway. Laws only apply to people who think they are just and fair and choose to follow them. The more restrictive things get the more people will resist and ignore the laws. Our leaders want to be very careful because this is the beginning of the end of any system.
 
That is so true Driftwood .... It was mentioned in my conversation with the DC is that the BIGGEST issue when it comes down to signing your name on the paper work... nobody wants it to come back to them that GOD FORBID, they made a mistake,,,I really wanted to tell him that rumor has it, the last perfect man I heard of was crucified...

I think in this case many do not even know the law, let alone even think about it.......Again EDUCATION.... not RESTRICTION.. kind of like condoms... kids are going to do the dirty deed, just teach them they can be protected, do not tell them they will die of nasty disease if they do not abstain!

I venture to guess, if you were to ask the average person on the street, did they know of any fish or pets that are illegal to keep in the state, they would not have a CLUE! Nor would they know why it was not desirable to have that sps loose in the state, and presumably the state too as they do not have the time, inclination not resources to look into it, just PROHIBIT it .........NOBODY seems to know it is illegal to keep a non-native fish in a pond

I have to wonder if the lionfish from the Indo pacific was just an Urban Legend... has anyone else heard of this? I have to be sceptical.....I just got to wonder about the source of everything I hear or read.....

Denise
 
I thought all lions were from hawaii and they have found them all the way up to virginia but as far as I know the only restrictions on salt water fish is on the size of the fish
 
I heard on the news today the restaurant owner with the koi is filing for a permit... I wonder where that will go... It was originally denied but he is appealing- which is SOP from what I was told.... was also told there will be no permits for koi in this state.... even though someone else already has a permit for them....

Stay tuned...
Denise
 
Shoot, if they are finding lions now, I'm going to go get Jason and his waders and we'll go look for a lionfish instead of Spot!!!

:D
Laurie
 
Please make a stand

Please make a stand

OK guys,
I am asking you to make it know that you do not agree with the state laws on this issue..

Currently ME has the strictest laws in the country

Currently the state does not have the time to review new fish -One aquarium service person submitted a list of cichlids two years ago. It went no where, SOS.... The state will likely not find the time nor resources to address this issue unless we are persistent ........The state did find the time to take the jack dempsey off the list... THINK ABOUT THAT

Currently,the state suggests to apply for a permit for 'exotic' fish... it has to be proven they are secure, disease/pathogen free and individually identifiable. Permits have been granted to individuals with specific goal such as teaching or research, NOT private collectors - This is not true as I was told a guy has a permit for koi to be kept in his $250,000 solarium, the states concern with that situation is if the wife and a crime of passion ie, knowing the guy loves his fish, sabotages his system....

One has to wonder how often the permit has to be applied for as and how long it will take them to look into your request for a permit.... The request is AUTOMATICALLY denied, in hopes that the issues will be dropped.... one has to appeal the decision, which makes the whole ordeal take longer

Currently, due to the Atlantic Salmon Restoration project, NO permits will be issued in the Penobscot Water Shed and Washington county... look it up, it covers a lot of the state. There is also talk that other watersheds may be added to the restoration project and IF and WHEN other sps such as the eel are re-introduced or protected, it opens up a whole new can of sardines so to speak.....different issues such as habitats and diseases will be addressed... one fish that is considered okay for now, may not be if the eel or any other sps comes into play....

One of my concerns is that this law is practically un-enforceable, except for publicly displayed aquariums..... and these are the least likely to mishandle fish... it is the private, uneducated person likely to pose a problem. I was at a garden center recently that sells pond plants. They had a 2 page info sheet on how to build a pond. Over 1/3 of the front page was covered with a picture of a fish... In our state, fish and ponds are a NO-NO (unless they are indigenous sps, which was not mentioned on the paper)

I encourage you to take a stand to be represented and not be ignored by nor unrepresented to our state agencies.... show your concern by vocalizing your thoughts to your state legislature, anybody and everybody that will listen..... NOW is the time to act while the issue is in the public eye......

Denise
 
I try not to dig too deeply into politics because things there never make sence and I am a problem solver by nature. I usually spend the whole time shaking my head at the idiotcy involved. Some people do not understand that it doesn't matter what they want, it is what is most just and fair for the whole that counts.

What about a petition that we could all sign saying that this issue is worth spending some of our tax dollars on. If they are going to restrict us in any way then there needs to be a system in place to manage those restrictions. A proper appeals process for pet stores would be a great start.

They will never do anything unless they feel they have to, or want to for their own reasons. The best thing we can do is keep telling people that our government, with it's insane spending, cannot afford to take a look at a simple list of fish... Make them look lazy and incompetent and they will act.
 
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