I DID or DID NOT get AEFW after treating RB

[Canarygirl]

1. I did get AEFW within 3-6 months of using Interceptor to treat red bugs

2. I successfully treated for red bugs and have not discovered AEFW within 3-6 months afterwards.

 

[TwistedTiger]

How is treating a tank for one pest going to give you another? Is this a trick question or something?

 

[aztbs]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11708671#post11708671 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TwistedTiger
How is treating a tank for one pest going to give you another? Is this a trick question or something?

No, several reefers are suspecting that the AEFW existed all along, and that something killed by the interceptor treatment was just holding them back to almost undetectable levels. After interceptor, flatworm population grows exponentially and they are finally discovered.

I am eager to see the results of this poll, as I am considering an interceptor treatment but several local tanks have AEFW.

 

[j.prostrata]

I have been in some discussions about this for the last yr or more. I do not think they make them come around I think people already have them and treating for RB gets them more in tune with there system and corals.. I think the obvious signs r there before the treatment but people just look better afterwards and find them. Also I have discussed with others the possibility of Acro crabs keeping them at bay. The interceptor treatments take care of them and the population explodes.

 

[gflat65]

The first time I treated for RB's, I found AEFW's about a month or so later. Fast forward a couple years to a complete SPS loss in a move and just treated for RB's again about 4 months ago, but no signs of AEFW's. Since the first issues with AEFW's, the QT process has gotten much more stringent (removing base rock, repeated dips, obs). I had a bryopsis outbreak start in the fourth week of the first RB treatment (mature tank). I never got it taken care of until the move. I attributed the Interceptor with killing something off that had kept the bryopsis out (had never had it before then). Could be coincidences, but how will we know...

 

[Canarygirl]

...yes, I'm looking for more insight into the chain of events that may be triggered by interceptor treatment. In the case of your example w/bryopsis...is it possible that the kill-off of the pod population from interceptor treatment meant that detritus was not handled efficiently, then nutrient levels rose as a result, and the bryopsis gained a foothold because of that shift? That kind of thing.

 

[stuckinstl]

Here's an old thread that seems to suggest a connection.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/printthread.php?threadid=899108&perpage=25&pagenumber=3

It would be interesting if the red bugs were actually keeping flatworms in check, and that the actual red bug damage was caused by larval flatworms which are eaten before they get big (by red bugs).

Pray let it be so.

 

[Philwd]

I voted yes. About 7 weeks later. I do not believe it was because I was more in tune with my system. These suckers hit my fav corals that were right up front. Bonsais. I noticed any little change in them. 7 weeks after interceptor the Garf bonsai got a little mottled color. Thought alk or something so went into testing overdrive. After 5 days or so of watching the discoloration spread I took out the mesoscope and found the bite marks.

I then took out the LE Purple unknown from the middle of the tank. Several bite marks. Not too many. Looked at second purple unknown colony. This was covered. Took out Paletta blue in back. Single bite mark very easily seen against the blue. Looked at yellow austera. A few bites not overly many. Obviously this was brand new damage to the other corals. I had not added corals in several months. And everything had gone through TMPCC dips.

Now I had just set up a new clean never seen corals frag tank. Put the corals into a QT then into frag tank(using TMPCC dips which turned out to be ineffective). Only put small frags in there that had no bite marks or eggs. Fast forward roughly 2 months. Noticed a coral getting lighter. Found AEFW and eggs. About the level of damage I saw in the worst purple unknown originally. So now I know it took about 2 months to reach that level. Which correlates very well to my original outbreak's time from interceptor treatment.

Now to add an admitedly anecdotal piece here. For various reasons I had not completely scraped all the encrusted bases off my LR; including purple unknown and bonsai. These bases slowly got chewed up and turned mostly white but didn't die completely. I re-seeded the tank with pods, mysis, tigger pods and various what we call reef stew here in town. Basically cultured nautilli, copepods, artemia etc. Added 2 cleaner shrimp that don't do squat. Now those same bases are regaining color and have nice PE. Where did the AEFW go? Was it because I added pods back? I don't know but it sure is coincidental. None of my fish, including fairy wrasses, ever pick at the bases. They all sleep at night. So if it isn't pods I am at a loss to explain this. There are other bases I didn't scrape off that don't seem to have been touched that you would think would have been food.

 

[Canarygirl]

Very interesting account, Philwd. And scary.

Thanks for sharing. By the way, where did you get your cultured reef stew? I want to get me some reef stew too.

 

[fishdoc11]

As I have expressed several times before I believe it's increased awareness that make reefers more aware of AEFW's after red bug treatments.
For those that don't think so I think it would be easy enough to reinfect your tank with red bugs to see if it fixes the problem

Chris

 

[Canarygirl]

As I have expressed several times before I believe it's increased awareness that make reefers more aware of AEFW's after red bug treatments.

Well this is certainly possible, but not a forgone conclusion by any stretch.

For those that don't think so I think it would be easy enough to reinfect your tank with red bugs to see if it fixes the problem

Lol...your logic doesn't work here. We were not saying that red bugs protect the tank, but that possibly the "collateral damaged" pods and mysid shrimp, etc. may be protecting the tank.

 

[Philwd]

As I have expressed several times before I believe it's increased awareness that make reefers more aware of AEFW's after red bug treatments.

I know people believe that. Before I found the AEFW I believed that too. I know in my case the corals I first noticed were corals I ALWAYS watched. When I got RB I took my mesoscope out and inspected every coral in range. Which these were. I didn't see damage then. The damage was new since I found the RB. I unfortunately did not re-inspect again before the interceptor treatment so I give you there is a chance it had just started right before the treatment. Given the other corals like Paletta blue and austera had just started being attacked 7 weeks after the interceptor I do believe the coincidence too strong to ignore.

Thanks for sharing. By the way, where did you get your cultured reef stew? I want to get me some reef stew too.

A local clownfish breeder makes it to feed his fry. He sells what he has left over each week to a few LFS here. They in turn sell it to us. Another gentleman up in northern Arizona makes up a similar mixture for his clown fry. A bit different diversity since he got his cultures straight from the Pacific. He brings it down to our meetings every month or 2.

 

[fishdoc11]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11712225#post11712225 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Canarygirl



Lol...your logic doesn't work here. We were not saying that red bugs protect the tank, but that possibly the "collateral damaged" pods and mysid shrimp, etc. may be protecting the tank.

I know what you are saying The first thread was started about this several years ago I actually looked for it when this one very similar to this one started a while back. Everything that I was aware of recovered nicely in my tank. There may be something we aren't aware of but so far no one has figured out what it might be. It doesn't mean there isn't something that keeps them in check but I ceartainly feel that increased awareness is much more likely. I could be wrong......I've been wrong before and will be again

My commment about reintroducing red bugs is admittedly half joking and half serious. While some seem to feel other organisms killed off by the Intercetor treatments might be protecting Acros others feel it's the red bugs them selves. For those that do it would be easy enough to find out.........but I haven't seen anyone try that yet.

The #'s in the poll at this point suggest most don't find AEFW after treating......that could change.

Chris

 

[reefkoi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11712179#post11712179 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishdoc11
As I have expressed several times before I believe it's increased awareness that make reefers more aware of AEFW's after red bug treatments.
For those that don't think so I think it would be easy enough to reinfect your tank with red bugs to see if it fixes the problem

Chris

I have this exact scenario going on right now.
I treated for RB about 8 months ago, noticed the AEFW's a month or less later. I have RB again and I did add 8 different wrasse to try and keep the AEFW in check.
So far I've only lost 2 colonies (Out of 50+ acropora) in the 7 months since I discovered AEFW.
How long will it take to lose all my acros? isn't it typically a lot faster? maybe the RB are slowing them down? or maybe the wrasse are slowing them down?

I think this is a good thread Chris, it is always good to stimulate conversation on a topic we know very little about, it's not such a cut and dry subject!

C

 

[stuckinstl]

How many cases of red bugs and flatworms **at the same time** are there?

If the answer is none, I think it might lead to new lines of possibility.

 

[HBtank]

These polls bother me because how many people voted for no reason? Lots of yes votes with no posts talking about it, always makes me wonder.... Especially on a topic that is so devastating. 10 people had this experience but did not post about it?

Need to make a two more options that state "I have/had AEFW but never treated for RB" and "I have not had RB or AEFW" to give random voters that do not fit in the two answers given a place to vote. Maybe even fith, to cover all the scenerios, "I have RB but never treated".

Just a basic third option "I have never treated for RB" would of been helpful.

IMO it is kind of compulsive for people to vote in these polls, just because.. Human nature I guess.

 

[Canarygirl]

At first I tried to write the poll with every conceivable combination of factors and it got so complicated that I felt no one would want to read it, much less vote! :lol:

What I'm thinking about now is how should we interpret the results? If increased awareness were the only factor (and not that many people with AEFW have some kind of crustacean keeping that population from growing), what should be the percentage of YES votes? Right now we have over 1/3 of respondents voting YES. That seems high to me, if increased awareness were the only factor. Your thoughts?

 

[Sullyman]

Thanks for the poll Canarygirl.
I can tell you it wasn't increased awareness on my part. I've got health issues that keep me home most of the time, and I spend a lot of it watching my tank.

 

[stuckinstl]

I don't think awareness would play a factor in this.

Why? Because I haven't read any cases of people reporting AEFW damage while they had red bugs.

If awareness was the issue, then while you were looking at the red bugs, you would notice the AEFW.

The cases we're talking about here are cases of flat worms AFTER the red bugs have been treated.

Also, AEFW's do so much damage, that I would think it'd be hard to ignore them for long.



---------------

A little about my current situation:

I recently found red bugs on a few frags. I do NOT have AEFW.

I've been hesitant to treat with interceptor.

I have also not voted.

 

[fishdoc11]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11714181#post11714181 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reefkoi

I think this is a good thread Chris, it is always good to stimulate conversation on a topic we know very little about, it's not such a cut and dry subject!

C

I didn't say it was a bad thread and I didn't say it was cut and dry either

I merely stated my opinion and if you read my posts I very clearly state I could be wrong.

The reason I felt it important to state my opinion is because often people will see 2 different things happen at the same time and automatically associate the 2 without any real relation. Also sometimes people will suddenly realize something is going wrong and assume the problem is acute (just happened) when in fact it's a chronic (happening over a long period) problem they just noticed. Both of those are very common situations with ill pets and their owners which of course would include aquarists and their corals. IME red bugs are much easier to spot than AEFW's so it makes sense that the aquarist notices the red bugs first. Also IMO if someone has been introducing any # of Acros into their tank without dipping and/or QT, which most new reefers do, my bet would be they already have both

There are over 3000 different species of coral parasitic flatworms in the wild and it seems there at least a couple of different kinds that play a role in our tanks. Some people get AEFW's and it is very quickly devastating. Others live with them for years not knowing they have them chasing other reasons for the occasional STN leading to RTN situation blaming it on the occasional unhealthy coral or more frequently IME alk issues. Still others know they have them and manage to keep them in check, at least for a period, with blowing off the corals with a PH, dips etc.....

hth, Chris