I got Water!!!!

[Bergovoy]

HEY!!!!

I have water in my tank!!!

And ther eis only one leak!!!!

DAMNIT!!!!

The 1-1/2" Union fitting is leaking.... I cant tighten it anymore than I have, as I do not want to torque it as it would torque the glass if I did.

It is a small leak, about one drip every fifteen seconds.

I continued to fill the tank to see if I can see any other leaks that I will need to address when I drain the tank. But I dont see any.

I have not fired up the closed loop yet either. I want to wait until someone is here to help me and keep an eye open and run and get towels if need be... (WOW, I am a pessimist, I never used to be a pessimist, WHAT HAPPENED )

Anyways, the tank looks good, the lights look better, Thanks Sean, (Scallopking).

And special thanks to Austin,(PasadenaReefer), for his help on Friday. For a newbie, he did real good. He caught something and I did not take his word for it and thought it would be okay, but it turned out he was right, and I had to redo and rework it to make fit. Shoulda listened to him.

But his best assistance was just being there for me for the support and motivation I needed. Got me outta my little slump and got me going. Without him, the tank might be another week out before it saw water. I owe you...

Thanks to those that gave me some advise and help, too many of you to name.

I will obviously continue with my wet test, and start mixing my salt water. I have two drums so I can mix about 70-80 gallons at a time. Along with the water I will carry over from my small tanks, I hope to get it filled in one day, when I am ready.

I will also start working on the electrical too. That will be easier for me as I have practical experience with wiring. Although I am just now finding out about the x10 things. I am sure I will have questions about that stuff. ( I dont plan on using it for system critical equipment, but it sure does sound great for some of the small incidental stuff)

I will also be building a sump to replace the glass tank I am using now. Although I jsut recd a set of diamond hole saws that I cant wait to try out. Anyone want thier tanks drilled? No charge for while, but then again no liability. I do have practical experience with working with glass, I have done a ton of stained glass projects and windows and all kinds of things. Cutting and grinding glass I think I can handle. My first projects will be to convert the glass tanks I have now into sumps. If anyone wants a free sump, let me know, and I will customize the tanks I have now to your specs. (Yuo will need to pay for any extra glass that you need for baffles or dividers nd silicone). But other than that, it is free. I have three tanks, two 50 gallon tanks, one tall one regular, and a thrity gallon tank.

So, let me know if you want them, or I will just experiment with layouts I make up in my little noggin.

So, the next couple of weeks will still be busy, but it will be a productive busy. I will see real progress. and see the light at the end of the road.

I will be getting pictures up later.

Bill

 

[ycnibrc]

hey Bill
I'm glad that you making progress. Get that tank running and transfer your rock over. Do you make a decision to go for bare bottom or sand bed? Anyway get the tank running so you can cycle it.

 

[Bergovoy]

Yup,

Making progress alright.

I still need to figure out why I have a leaking union valve though.

I will be fixing that pipe tonight or tomorrow. I jsut want to fire up the closed loop first to see if I have any leakers there too.

I will be mixing saltwater up though, so that will take a day also. Best bet for getting saltwater into the tank will be on tuesday... (I hope)

I am anxious too.

I also only have a temp sump right now, so it is going to be crowded once I squeeze your skimmer into it.

Still nt clear on how to hook up that threaded gate valve. I cant find anythign threaded on the skimmer??


OH AND BTW!!!

My tank has wheels!!!

I put some appliance castors under the stand after my last flood, so I could move the stand to dry it out. And figured I would leave them there while I did my wet test.

So far no problems, and I can move the tank all by myself, with no sloshing.

And for the record, I did speak with a structural engineer, and he gave me an okay with some comments aoubt where and how to install the wheels, and some other pointers on reinforcing the stand.

But zero difelection at this point. The plywood deck has not moved, the bottom 2 bi plates have not diflected or bent at all, not a smidgen...

The castors I have in there now are not the ones I bought originally. These are low profile, and have multiple wheels over a slightly larger area, but the wheels are plastic.

I had planned on taking these wheels out after the wet test, but now I am not sure. I would rather put the other castors back in, they are rated for this weight and have a rubber wheel, but the the tank and stand are now ONE. I would have to undo thedrain line and return line connections to remove the tank. The closed loop system is all union fittings so that would not be that hard to remove.

I am still thinking about that and the BB. I really want the BB but Ido like the look of sand...

Hmmm decisions decisions decision...

Bill

 

[ShadowViper]

Be real careful with wheels, the water in a 180 alone will weigh close to 1500 lbs, thats before the weight of the tank/stand/canopy. The tank full with rock is going to be somehwere in the 2500-3000 lb range if not more. Even if your wheels are made to hold that sort of wieght your now putting stress points at every point that the wheels are located. If the tank is going on a wood floor or anything for that matter other then a concrete foundation you run the risk of damaging the floor. Even though the tank wieghs the same prior to the wheels you have changed how its contacted to the ground. With the tank directly to the ground the weight is distriubted around a 6x2 ft footprint. With wheels the weight is now being forced against a much smaller foot print (the size of the wheels x the number of wheels). Another issue with it being on wheels is you now have a higher chance of the tank tipping over.

The idea of using wheels sounds great in theory but in practice it just doesn't work out. If it did there would be alot more people out there having their tanks on them.

Good luck with your project.

 

[ycnibrc]

hmm wheel with the fish tank...never heard of that idea before, but anyway get it running first and cycle the tank. Have you give any thought about what kind of reef tank you will have yet?sps,mix reef,lps or softy. You need to narrow down so I can help you with some idea about flow or lighting.

 

[Bergovoy]

status

status

Hello,

I have a hardwood floor on top of slab on grade concrete floor.

The entire issue with teh wheels will be the stand andhow it will or wont support from four points.

The wheels are rated for the weight, actually rated for more then the weight they will carry.

The stand is constructed in such a way that the force at the four points will be sufficiently spread to the rest of the stand so that there will not be any diflection or bending in excess of what the stand and tank recquire. Moving the tank will be done in a manner to not slosh teh water or distub eht contents. (I have already moved the tank on my own. It took a bit to get it started and it only moved as far as i pushed it. insignificant momentum to make it travel further then I wnated it to)

I did communicate with a structural engineer who is intmately involved with aquariums, and is not only cognizant about structural matters but of the livestock and other marine specifics invlved.

As for my plumbing... Ugghh

That is the union that is leaking. Not sure why, but what I will do is drain the tank, then loosen the union on the other side of the tee on the same inlet line to the Oceans Motions four way, along with this union, then tighten them together one turn at a time then tighten the other union, and then repeat. The unions may be fighting against each other by pulling on the pipe in opposing directions.

This is the other leak. This is at the return line coming directly from the DART pump just before teh unin ball valve directly below the Oceans Motions four way device.

Not sure why it is leaking, but I may have to get a wrench on it, and I dont have one this big... I dont want to have to drain this system as ther is no good way to do this without getting water all over the bottom of the stand. There must be a way to screw in a tube into the drain plug at the volute on the pump housing that will hold the pressure. That tube can then have a valve that I can run into a pot or drain or the sump. Other then that the drain plug is about less then an inch above the plywood deck inside the stand.

This is a diverter vavle that I got from Danner Pumps, (Pondmast). This bastard leaks like a sieve. It has one 1" threaded male fitting on the inlet, and another 1" male threaded fitting for the main outlet, then a three quarter inch male threaded fitting for the diverter direction.

A standard pvc three quarter bushing adapter will thread onto that fitting, and spin all the way tot eh bottm / seat, without making a seal. I have the threads wrapped with teflon tape wound ten times. Still leaks like a sieve.

That mag 24 pump is a gonner anyway. It is effing loud. I made a mount for it and intalled suction cups for a isolation type of mount, but it still hums and vibrates like a Volkwagen humping a lion...

What pump should I go to? Can it be external? I am going to build a sump and I am going to put it outside on my patio, directly behind teh tank. The tank is backed up to a window that has a great acess / private patio. The chiller and Calc reactor was going out there why not the sump...

I need to come up with the sump design tomorrow, so I can start constructing it while I nail down the leaks... I can build it in no time as long as I have a plan and to have a plan I need the pump...So tell me what pump, submerged or not, and it is a done deal...

The sump will be three compartment, with an elevated refugium in the middle with water around and under it to the return on the end...

Of course this will mean I will ahve to redo the drain and return line setup that I have. And of course this last time I did this, was the third time, and with Austins help, (PasadenaReefer), the fitting assembly, the football field goal post, slid right on perfectly.

It will be ashame to take it off. It reallyl was quite a bit of work to get this sucker designed and put together. but when I take this off this time, will mean I will have to cut it out, along with teh bulkeheads, and the spaflex on the inside of the overflow and the bulkheads that teh spaflex connects to on the top of hte overflow . That rework will be at least $50 worth of material alone...

But, i will be able to tie the return line together and direct it to the outside where the new sump will be going.

Also, I read a thread about an absolutely silent overflow and drain line that someone came up with, involving using one of hte return lines as a a backup drain lineand using a coupling on top of the pipes in the overflow to use a perferated pipe on top of it and have the water leverfairly high in the overflow by adjusting a valve on teh drain and return line, kind of balanced to create a high water leverl to minimize the water fall noise. And the main drain line to go to the sump and terminate below the water line and the back up drain line to ternminate just above the water line. If you hear water flwoing into the sump, you know you have a high water leverl condition...

Anyways, anyone hear about that or some other ideas to minimize the noise. Teh drain line wate rinto teh sump was definately very loud. I dont have doors on the cabinet yet, but I am suer even with doors, I will not be able to carry on a norma l conversation...

So, betwen the pump and the drain line, something needs to be done. And done quick, and I have no ideas.

I need your ideas. PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE, with CHERRIES ON TOP.


If you can not help me, I would appreciate your guiding me to someone or some company I can hire to finish this project, as I will not be able to come up with any ideas to resolve those two issues.

So, if there is an aquarium installer company, please let me know how to find them, as I just tried to google a search on aquarium installers california and came up a couple fo names, but would rather get someone with references from here would be great.

Anyways, that is where I am at.
Good nite for now

Bill

 

[PasadenaReefer]

why does the wood in the back of your stand looked like its been sawed to fit that piece? :/ Heh JK man that was fun wasnt it? Gratz on the progress and for that stupid leak you can fix it in a couple days, remember PATIENTCE.... ill help you with the rock exc.. transfer call me up man. post a pick of the front view of the tank i bet it looks so *****in ooooo i cant wait ! more excited than you.

 

[ReefMeister2]

take the two halves of the union apart and check inside. Me thinks the O-ring fell out, as they always do.

Naughty-NAUGHTY, O-ring!

 

[ShadowViper]

For noise look into a Durso Design type stand pipe. Also with noise Rigid piping is always going to vibrate louder then flex pvc or hose. I ran on my 46 for a while a mag24 as the sump pump and it was quite(no vibration sounds from the pump, but flow noice was a bit loud), set it up to a closed loop originally with all PVC and WOW i thought I would shoot someone with the constant hum. changed out a few sections with Hosing and it helped alot.

Also i would check on that floor holding that much weight in a small point (where the wheels sit) I am pretty sure if you kept that thing on wheels for a long time it will eventually crack the wood which could lead to a disaster with the whole tank being uneven(the wheel that pushed through the floor being lower) and possibly tip the whole setup.

The guy can be an engineer and everything but bottom line is he is human and we all make mistakes. Nasa does it quite a bit. The real question is are you willing to risk your investment.

The wheel has been around for how long? How long has aquariums been in the home?

Like i said if it worked w/o flaws there would be more ppl doing it since it makes moving it later alot easier. You can put alot of things that weight in a stationary spot on wheels, but those things don't move. The water in your tank is in constant motion so forces are bouncing around in there.

 

[Bergovoy]

I am using a modififed stockman standpipe. I am not getting too much noise, (if any) from the overflow. Most of it is the pump, the next culprit is the at the sump at the filter sock, then the fans at the Hamilton light fixture. (I was surprised at how loud they are) I will have to give them a call tomorrow, (I mean today).

The wheels will not last until after the wet test. No worries guys. I simply can not move the tthank by myself after each failed test...

There are times when being pessimistic pays off. Mopping up and drying under that stand would be impossible without it.

And Austin, where would I have been if the dremel was not there to save my butt, time and time again... There aint nothing like a dremel and an all purpose cut off blade....

 

[flat broke]

In your last pic, there is a check valve on your return? Is that a HD or Lowes jobby, or an actual swing check valve? If it's the Lowe's/HD unit I think it is, you're introducing a LOT more head pressure against your return pump than if you used an aquarium specific check valve.

As stated above, disasemble the union, check the o'ring, and also check to make sure there arent' any plastic burs from cutting/grinding/etc. that may have gotten lodged in there. Unless you sanded each cut smooth, you'll probably find a little bit of pvc debris somewhere in your plumbing or tank.

On that leaky ball valve/union.... sometimes ball valves leak at the ball until the material swells a little. Otherwise, check the union portion of it for the same o'ring issues as well as debris.

For the noise on the fans, make sure the fans aren't right up against a wall or structure. If the air has to bend to get into the fan, the fan will be noisier.

Next would be a question about the diameter of plumbing you're running off the mag 24. Check you're instructions that came with the pump and make sure you're giving it what it needs/wants. With regard to the noise issue of the pump... it kind of goes with the territory. You could issolate it from the hard plumbing with a small section of spa-flex or soft tubing and that may help a little. You could also install neoprene under your sump, so the sump wont transmit the resonation from the pump to the stand. That will also help. Additionally, you could pull the mag out of service since your'e not up and running and build up some nice silicone feet on the bottom using some 100% silicone caulking. This works pretty well and is inert once the silicone has cured 100%.

I'm not trying to be an *** when I say this, but again, you have a lot of water volume in that system, and if you're not emotionally prepared for "stuff" to happen, reefkeeping in general might prove somewhat more stressful than anticipated. With the leak issues you seem to have with your plumbing, I'd definitely avoid going to an external return pump for the time being. More plumbing = more potential leaks. As my 7th grade science teacher used to say... KISS Keep it simple stupid. Harsh but true, the more plumbing, joints, devices, complications you add to your system, the more points of failure, and potential headaches/catastrophes you're going to expose yourself to.

As far as aquarium setup, you can give the guys at Jeffs exotic fish a call. http://www.exoticfish.com/ I believe they do setup/maintenance work. I've always been treated fair when buying hardgoods or livestock from them, so I'd assume they deal in the same fashion with regard to their services.

Good luck with it.

Chris

 

[Bergovoy]

I am not sure where you are picking up any emotional issues here, and you do seem to be an *** about it.

I am merely stating the possiblity that eveyone has thier limits, and plumbing may be mine.

Does that mean that those that can not plumb should not have aquariums???

Or does it mean that those that cannot plumb should hire those that can???

So, where ever you are getting that impression from that is compelling you to come up with statements about whether or not I should have an aquarium, I wish you would eitehr rethink that line of thought or keep it to your self!!! For it is not received well, nor will it deter me from continuing on with my tank.

You can choose to help, support in some way or not. Your choice. Your continued comments about my emotional status or capability is not accepted as You do not know me, nor are you qualified to offer commetns that will be constructive in that regards.

You can have and make whatever opinions you want, that is your god given right, but again we will not agree, nor will it be revieved well, so should you choose to comment in that category, I can assure you it will not get better.

Now, I believe I mentioned that I have installed suction cups under the pump for isolation from the tank and stand.


i have noticed that the check valve does indeed increase head pressure and will be changed out when I switch over to my sump.

The placement of the pump to an external pump will not increase the number of fittings just place those fitting outside the sump, where a leak could be more of a problem.

The only problem with the pump set up now, is the stupid pondmaster diverter valve that leaks like a sieve. Tehre is something not right with it as I took it to a plumbing shop and nothing will seal on teh three quarter inch threaded port on that valve. NOTHING.

That plus the valve body does not hold the pressure of the mag 2400 as when I do adjust the diverter while under pressure, the entire body leaks from all over at every seal.

With teh home depot check valve and the reduced flow, the sump and overflow will match on flow, aolong with my plaing a vavle betweeen the pump and the tank, to restrict it further as needed.

So I will remove the diverteer valve and assembly.

I also spoke with someone today on how to better pipe the drain line intot he sock, and that was to add a coupling and extension tube to go down below the water line to minimize the splash. That tube will not be able to be glued so I can remove the sock and replace it as necessary.

The union I had used had a kink in the o ring,. Not sure where it came from, maybe I over tightened it, (again, my plumbing prowess is a liability not an asset, and maybe could have been avoided by havign some more talented or experienced help over here to give me that pointer). So, I spent the day locating a replacement gasket.

Any tips on installing the oring? Should I lube it before compressing it or putting it under pressure? Any comments on using some type of tightening pattern between the two unions on the same pipe, i.e. alternate the tightening of the unions until they are both torqued evenly

Also the unin ball vavle at the DART for the closed loop. That fittign also had a leak. I did not take it apart today while I ran around looking for the other gasket.

Should I try to tighten it, now that I bought a larger pipe wrench? Before it was just hand tight as I could not get a wrench on it. The nut is huge

Also, should I use teflon tape on teh threads of the unions? Would that help in spinnign the nuts or if I need to take them off in the future???

I could ask a thousand questions, and the problem will be with the question I dont ask. Or dont know to ask.

Having talented freinds is a benefit, not only in this hobby buy in every hobby, unfortunately, most of my talented freinds are talented in sports or computers or astronomy.


I will finish the next wet test tonight, and if things dont quite work out , I will give Jeff's a call and see if I can set an appointment up with them to finish the job. I would love to have been able to say I couls do this, but like I said before, I know and accept my limitations with no problems or apprehensions. I will still be able to say I did a bunch, and I learned a bunch, and who knows, I may have the opportunity to try again...

 

[818]

u type to much man :lol:

 

[Bergovoy]

I figure the more I type the better I will get at it...

 

[Bergovoy]

And it appears that my typing is not intended to be offensive as seems second nature to some on this board.

so, this board is either about posting for help, (if allowed, tolerated and or accepted by some), and posting responses, if and when some are [violation] good and ready, or for those that feel the need to offend, antagonize, or perpetuate dischord.

There is a middle ground, and the simple way would be to keep your [violation] opinions to yourself, when those opinions do not help, nor are requested for, or not conducive to an adult conversation.

Seems your reply is well defined and understood in those scheme of things.

 

[818]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8932318#post8932318 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bergovoy
I figure the more I type the better I will get at it...

And the more you type the more someone wont bother to read your whole list of problems.

You get off subject so much it makes me understand the pain some English teachers go through when grading papers.

So what is still wrong with the plumbing? Did you correct the defected fitting yet?

 

[818]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8932054#post8932054 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bergovoy


I could ask a thousand questions, and the problem will be with the question I dont ask. Or dont know to ask.

Thats it right there...

 

[bad santa]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8932877#post8932877 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by My F1sh R D34D!

You get off subject so much it makes me understand the pain some English teachers go through when grading papers.

so true.

 

[ReefMeister2]

The two larger ports of the Pentair Aquatics valve are standard 1" MPT (same as standard PVC fittings).

The smaller port is an "off-size" that resembles 3/4" MPT but it is not. It is slightly smaller, and all the teflon tape in the world won't make it seal. It is manufactured AND intended for use with a specific Pentair Aquatics product ( Manufacturers do this for exculsivity reasons)

Change out the valve and make a distribution manifold instead

 

[flat broke]

Sorry you find my posts so offensive. What I said to you is exactly the same kind of frank reply I'd give to a friend if they were strugling with something and asking for a good amount of hand holding. It doesn't mean I think you should give up or anything like that, but half of what anyone gets out of something they read, is something they read into it.

I have nothing against anyone asking questions as I ask more than my share. If you look past the portion of my post that offended you, you'll notice I tried to give specific input to your situation. I'm not one to slam someone for doing something themselves. I've cut up boats and started on repairs most would say I had no business doing. I would never buy a stand or canopy, and overall I pride myself on being able to handle most things myself; so it would be extremely hypocritical for me to chastise someone else for trying to do the same. That being said, you can rest assured I'm not trying to dissuade you from your task.

Now specific to the diverter valve problem, check the part number that you have. If you want to keep a similar setup, Danner PN 5535 is the diverter they recommend for your pump. It has 1" npt fittings and may be better suited to your application.

With regard to the noise issue. I saw that you mentioned the suction cup mounts. But I can tell you from personal experience on the Sedra 3500 pump on my skimmer that the suction cup mounts did little to quell the vibration against the bottom of my glass sump. When I did the silicone feet, things got noticeably quieter. Probably because the silicone feet come to a point and allw the pump to occilate slightly nullifiying the forces that would otherwise transmit a vibration. I wasn't ignoring your previous post, just trying to make a quick response to an alternative method of dealing with the issue.

All things being equal, the external pump can usually be more energy efficient, transmit less heat to your water, and typically quieter than an in sump pump. However, the thought of a mechanical seal failure (seen it happen on a dart and on other types of pumps) while I'm away for the weekend, has me looking at keeping a submersible pump for my return pump in my relatively small 60 gallon cube.

If you keep the mag for your return pump the rule they use on the .75" outlet pumps is to double that diameter for the plumbing. Increasing the pipe diameter will have a positive effect on reducing head loss. But if you're getting most of your flow from the CL, then you don't really need to worry about that aspect of things too much.

Outside of that, I don't have much else for you. The o-rings shouldn't really need any greasing, but overtorquing can be a problem. On that other fitting you were looking at using a bigger wrench on (on the CL), be carefull not to overtighten if its the joint going into the Dart's housing.

Good luck with it, and sorry I came accross like a horses hindquarters (that should avoid the sensorship scripting )

Chris