I think my fish are sick

[Deadeye]

The boxfish looks like it has something on him, I have never seen ich so I don't know if this is what it is. The top of the puffer I see white specks but don't know if it is normal, one side of the tang too maybe, or I could just be seeing things. Here are some pictures, what does it look like? and how do I medicate if it is a disease? I think I may just be over worrying. (Not the blue spots by the way, thats normal)

 

[Deadeye]

My temp got low, 76 degrees now, I think I will have to stick another heater in there. But I don't think that is to bad, I thought for saltwater 72-80 was ok. not that big a shift but you get what im saying.

 

[SoupySteve]

I can definitely see cause for alarm on the first pictured fish - you can clearly see something on his fins...
There are two or three different things - if I recall correctly - that are Ich or can easily be mistaken for Ich - none of them being a good thing.
From MY EXPERIENCE, once a fish has Ich (or anything resembling it), all your fish will have it - and the tank will be free of vertebrate life sooner or later. Most of the medications I have seen to treat Ich uses copper which is deadly to invertebrate life.
I'd get all the fish outta that tank PRONTO - put in a QT - and keep your fingers crossed. Some may suggest that you do a "freshwater dip" - that supposedly kills the parasites (but in my opinion, that stresses the fish EVEN MORE - so I've never done that). While in QT, I DO suggest that you feed foods that have been soaked in garlic - no kidding. Garlic contains immune-system boosters AND the fish seem to have a thing for the taste also.
I'll go ahead and be the creep who reminds you that you should QT all livestock going into a a display... and yes, that DOES make me a hypocrite as I don't QT any livestock either :bum:
Sorry to see a reefer in trouble... best of luck to you!

 

[Deadeye]

There really are not many hermits and snails, maybe 2 snails and 2-3 hermits in it, since it is a FOWLR. What about www.nosickfish.com? they say it is reef safe I believe on their ich treatment.. I don't have a QT tank and that is a lot of fish to stuff in like a 30 gallon QT tank... I could get a QT if neccessary, but why can't I use the no sick fish treatment and garlic?

 

[SoupySteve]

Paraphrased for post-length's sake :bum: "Natural Reef Aquariums" - John Tullock, pg.254-5 (required reading, IMO) :

"Cryptocaryon & Amyloodinium make up a majority of all marine illnesses that reefers will encounter.
Crytocaryon is a ciliated protozoan and often accompanies Amyloodinium. Some fish with Cryptocaryon can recover without treatment.
Amyloodinium is a dinoflagellate algae - and generally isn't recognized untill it's too late. Symptoms BEFORE visual symptoms include "panting", staying near areas of increased water flow, and other signs of respiratory issues. When the fish gets the Amyloodinium, it has problems breathing, gets stressed - becomes infected with Cryptocaryon... The only effective treatment for Amyloodinium is a 10% solution added to the water at the rate of one drop per gallon - then maintaining for that level for two weeks after the disappearance of symptoms. I would look for copper medications on the market that contain only copper sulfate."

By the way, I once had a fish with what I HAD DIAGNOSED as Amyloodinium - I'll link it.

My guess is that the reef-safe nosickfish stuff treats Cryptocaryon only.

Good luck!

 

[Deadeye]

well, what should I do? or what would you do? GO buy a QT tank? how big? I think the fish will kill each other being that close.

I know I dont want to use copper cause i want to add snails and hermit later since the puffer wont eat them.


I guess I should get a UV steralizer too now, which one do you guys recommend, I've seen one where the water travles up into it, supposdly being better and it sits in the sump I think, but I have no sump room now that I think about it, so I guess I need something else.

 

[SoupySteve]

Well, what I would do is... I'd buy a big two rubbermaid containers, make them QTs for your fish. Dose them with the method described above (with copper sulfate).
The 20-30 gallon size aren't HUGE - and aren't over $20. When you're doneyou can use them for ANYTHING (a new sump, fuge, place to mix saltwater, HELL - you can even do NON-REEF things with 'em!)
If you didn't mind losing your inverts, you could treat your display tank - but it'll be a LONG time before water changes take out all the copper from your tank and you could introduce new ones - and I myself prefer to have a living clean-up crew in my tank.
I think you've learned the worst of the lessons you get to learn as a reefer - sometimes, sh!t happens and you have very few ways (if any) to better a situation like this...
I apologize if I've sounded snooty or pessimistic - it's just my nature! :bum:

I DO wish you luck with your fish, though!

 

[LargeJohn]

I would highly recommend the garlic additive. Kent makes a garlic extract (I think it's nothing more than garlic juice). You can add a couple of drops to your food, or you can add it directly to the tank. I try to do this at least once a month. I think there is some immune system benefit, the fish seem to enjoy the taste, and it is reef safe.

At this point, I think I would use garlic and leave the fish in the display tank. If you catch it early, the garlic should cure it. If it's too late, then it probably doesn't matter what you do. My opinion is that catching and relocating a fish to a QT tank only causes stress (to you and the fish), and can make the problem even worse.

GOOD LUCK! Hope everything gets better.

Drop me an e-mail if you want to try the garlic. I have some that you can use. jwsjohn01 at yahoo dot com

 

[underdog9701]

As far as Garlic I know of people the buy the "Organic Garlic" from a supermarket and just soak the food in the juices and garlic for about 20 mins before feeding... From what I seen it worked pretty well... I think it is like 2 bucks at wal-mart.
As far as using regular rubermaid containers... Fewells told me to watch out on doing that because he has had the sides of them literally collapse and 50+ gallons of water in a living room.... just a note of precaution...

 

[Sk8r]

That is definitely a sick fish, with a bad case. Garlic can't hurt, but you need to medicate, and definitely do quarantine. Never medicate your main tank. What kills off either parasites or bacteria will do in the microlife in your sandbed and complicate your problems with a nitrate rise and diminished sandbed capacity. Your qt tank should be totally bare, to prevent absorption of the medicine by the substrate. You can provide pvc pipe segments for cover.

 

[Deadeye]

So, if I QT, 2x30 gallon rubber maids, 2xheaters?, no powerheads? and just add salt water?

What else do I need?

Then do I just change out like 1 gallon of water a day to keep ammonia and stuff down? How long until I can put them back in the main tank?

What should I medicate with other than garlic, "no sick fish"?

Thanks for the garlic offer largejohn, I will see if Fewells can get me something quickly, if not if you go up there if you don't mind dropping it off with him, I'll make sure whats left gets back to you or I'll give you some cash for it.

Thanks for the help guys, I don't see why I can't medicate with the "no sick fish" stuff they say it is reef safe, but I guess they could be wrong? I'd like to do just garlic and see if that gets rid of it and get a UV steralizer, but I hear just garlic doesn't work. Lots of different stories so I'm a bit confused...

Thanks for the advice, I'll do more research tonight and take action tommorow.

 

[LargeJohn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8597830#post8597830 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Deadeye
Thanks for the help guys, I don't see why I can't medicate with the "no sick fish" stuff they say it is reef safe, but I guess they could be wrong?

It might work fine, or it might contaminate your tank and do even more harm. The market is full of "miracle" cures for every problem. My opinion is to rely on fellow hobbyists, but as you have seen, you will different opinions from different people.

I'd like to do just garlic and see if that gets rid of it and get a UV steralizer, but I hear just garlic doesn't work. Lots of different stories so I'm a bit confused...

Everyone that you speak to will have different experiences and different opinions, because they have tried different things. A QT and copper will definitely kill the parasite. My experience with QT'ing an already sick fish has never been successful. I think this is because of the added stress.

I would still recommend adding garlic to all your fishes diet as regular practice. I think it stimulates appetite and promotes immunity.

The hardest part of this hobby is that there are no absolute about the animals. Your success in whatever course that you choose to take will depend on:

1. How early you catch and treat the problem?
2. How strong and healthy the fish is before the problem?
3. How stressed out the fish is (some seem to take it better than others)?

Sometimes it doesn't matter what you do. Healthy fish may shake it off themselves, and others may succumb to the parasite.

There really is no "right" answer, but whatever you choose I would recommend following advice from a hobbyist or trusted LFS owner.

Good Luck, I have felt your frustration.

 

[fewells]

For a short time I would say rubbermaids would be ok for quarantine. I used one as a sump for like 3 years and it failed. Mabye a fluke but better safe than sorry.

 

[Deadeye]

Ok, so I got a 25 watt Gamma UV steralizer today and its hooked up and running. I also got garlic gaurd and soaked there food, they all ate except the worst looking one the box fish did not eat and is staying in the same spot, if he doesn't eat by tommorow should I QT him? or should I just go out and get the stuff I need to QT him today?

Also, do I just run the UV steralizer 24/7???

 

[Deadeye]

I don't think the box fish will be alive by tommorow, I think I am going to give up on trying to keep my favorite fish, the longhorn cowfish. I think I am lucky that the other fish are still doing good, I changed the carbon out tonight with fresh in case of death. I also added some ROWA Phos cause I had some red slime on the sand, now it is just brown.

 

[Deadeye]

Oh, I almost forgot my tank is staying at 76.8 to 77 degrees, and I can not get it to go up.. I added a second heater a 200watt titanium, plus there is a big rena heater, both in the sump...

Could it be cause the water isn't really moving around a lot in the sump? This problem just started recently, both heaters I can feel get hot, both heaters are supposed to be able to handle over a 55 gallon tank on their own.

 

[Sk8r]

The temp really needs to be up another degree at least, ideally around 80. I can't figure why your heaters aren't doing the job. I have a single 250w heater in the sump of a 52g, and have no trouble at all. This is one I think you ought to pose in the lighting and equipment forum....be careful of heaters: they're dangerous and treacherous things, whose thermostats are never accurate, and they can take your tank out if they malfunction. If you've got a bad heater, I'd say it might be the older of the two, since things weren't right before you added the second heater. Ask there for info and advice...I've just never had the problem.

 

[Deadeye]

Well, I would have guessed faulty heater too.. But it turned out to be the temp probe... I stuck another temp probe in the main tank and it reads 81.9 degrees. I turned each heater down one notch. I tried replacing the battery on the temp probe, didn't help, I think I will trash it.

 

[Deadeye]

Just an update: The Cowfish died, found him dead the next day when I said I didn't think he'd make it. So, I think I am done with trying to keep cowfish. I removed the rena heater and am just using a finnex titanium. The other fish are eating well, I am using garlic gaurd. They look like they will be able to get over the ich. Hopefully my massive UV steralizer will help too.