I want to nuke this cyano but it'll prob survive

[Cyril]

I have researched and researched online until my eyes hurt. I have a 90gallon with about 50lbs of live rock. I have currently a powder blue tang, a pair of true black ocellaris. My clean up crew consists of about 5 or 6 nassarius snails a brittle starfish 2 fighting conchs and 1 turbo snail. I only use ro/di water for changes which I have been doing about 10-15 gallons sometimes twice a week. I run an ess skimmer (idk what size but it's about 4 1/2 feet tall) it does well collecting a lot of skimmate. I recently added a refugium with a ball of chaeto. I run matrix carbon in a sock and a nitrate reducer that I purchased with some helpful guidance by the wonderful ppl at Caribbean forest. My nitrates were high about 40ppm now it's at 10 and going down. I also replaced all my bulbs 2 weeks ago geismann bulbs on my tek lighting also suggested by caribbean. I have 3 powerheads nice flow. I brought in a water sample for them to test and like I said before the only problem they could find was the nitrates which are now decreasing nicely. I feed the fish every other day and try to keep it to a minimum.
I am at amiss at why this crap is still thriving. It grows on the glass a lil especially at the lower areas of the tank and on the lower rocks. It is not like a matte of film anymore that is completely gone it's like a fine powder that u can not blow off with a turkey baster or powerhead. I have to scrub it with a toothbrush. It seems it has adapted to everything I throw at it. I have also have tried the turkey Baster method of blowing into the live rock to blow out the hidden detritus. Am I missing something? Oh yeah I don't wanna do the chemi clean or red slime remover. I don't want a bandaid that will eventually come back I wanna starve this bacteria into oblivion.... Oh yeah my lights are on for 12 hours. And my tank has been up and running for 3 years. Please please help I'm all out of ideas and would love to hear ur feedback and ideas.

 

[tent boy]

It looks like you are doing everything right. Feeding spectrum pellets vs frozen is best. Patience is the key to this hobby. If you keep doing the right things, this too will pass. When you start adding chemicals like slime remover, other problems could pop up. IME

 

[DEEP BLUE SIX]

A BRS reactor might be a good addition with some GFO (Granulated Ferric Oxide) in it. As you stated, the chaeto your using should eat up Nitrates as well.. and seems to be working evidence of lower reading in your tests.
Are you running a light over Chaeto?

How often do you change your filter sock?

Also, you mention fish and clean up crew. But do you have any corals? What else is in the tank? Or just them and rock? (FO)


Your bulbs are new. Thats good. Everyone has a different idea on their photo period too. Depending on what they are doing / keeping. You can try trailing it back some. Like 10 hours. Or even something between 8 - 10 hours.
FO don't need as much lighting as corals(reef). Even corals can do with a little less light than some people give them.(they need a longer time to actually process afterward in the dark.. than they need to take it in during the lighting period) Less- as in the length of photo period per day itself. Trailing it back some can't really hurt.

Your fish need to eat well, yes. But they also gain energy from the photo period and good water conditions during the active part of the day. Needing a little less food than some people think. Especially if stocked correctly(not over crowded) Several light feedings watching all they eat avoiding excess (as it sounds like you may be doing) is better than feeding too much & less times. You don't need it fueling negative things.

As you've stated, everything your doing seems to right. Nitrates are decreasing..

You "could" try a cyano killing product.. depending on your preference and thoughts on that. (Red Slime remover or Chemiclean) They work. Some people don't like to use them in some tanks.

Some more information may be helpful. Any pictures at all? Lets see what this stuff looks like. Most people here know what cyano is like. But lets see what your talking about anyhow... Try scraping it off the glass with a razor blade or glass safe blade..? Have you tried to syphon some up off the sand when doing a water change? removing as much as possible is not neccesarily going to rid it 100%. But it will help diminish more. Then you can try a slightly larger water change too. (your ratio seems good 10-15 gallons) Perhaps try a 20-30 gallon change though in trying to clean this out more. It may be survivng still on low level nutrients in your sand bed (buried). Even if the readings(nitrates) are not high.

Get us a pic though. Curious.

 

[Tonynlo]

I would go right after Nitrates and Phosphates. While PO4 may read zero, you most likely have a ton if the bacteria is surviving. What are you using for phosphate control? How old are your RO/DI filters?

 

[tmz]

PO4 contributes to cyano growth. It needs to be ,.05ppm to inhibit it,ime. If the substrate and rock were exposed to high levels ,it may take some time (weeks/ months ) for it to level out as some sticks( adsorbs) to the aragonite( substrate and rock) and leaches back over time.
Nitrates at 10ppm could be lower but that level isn't bad, imo.Cyano may feed off the N in NO3 but can produce it' own fixed nitrogen unlike other organisms like algae. So.
I'd focus on PO4 and continue the steps you are already taking.

BTW what nitrate reducer are you using?

 

[teamdulski]

Just go lights out(black out, no light for the tank at all) for 3 days.

 

[Cyril]

First I have to say thank u for taking the time to read and reply to my post. Alright deep blue I change my sock everytime I blow the live rock off with the turkey Baster. I have one BTA that I really don't want to stress out by doing a lights out for 3 days. Also major water changes like 20 or 30 percent I did one of those and had a dead fish 6 hours later dont know if it was a coincidence but now kinda gun shy about it. I really wanna go reef but want to fix the cyano before I do. I have a few pics
<a href="http://s253.photobucket.com/albums/hh48/cyril450/?action=view&current=05b4d851.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh48/cyril450/05b4d851.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" /></a>

<a href="http://s253.photobucket.com/albums/hh48/cyril450/?action=view&current=a0785899.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh48/cyril450/a0785899.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" /></a>

<a href="http://s253.photobucket.com/albums/hh48/cyril450/?action=view&current=a1fb606d.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh48/cyril450/a1fb606d.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" /></a>

<a href="http://s253.photobucket.com/albums/hh48/cyril450/?action=view&current=7b9271fd.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh48/cyril450/7b9271fd.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" /></a>

<a href="http://s253.photobucket.com/albums/hh48/cyril450/?action=view&current=b4d86fd6.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh48/cyril450/b4d86fd6.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" /></a>

 

[tent boy]

I'm pretty sure all those asterina starfish indicate excessive nutrients in the tank.

 

[Cyril]

Questions that were also asked. I don't have anything for phosphate control as in a sponge or GFO. But I'm researching now online all about it. My ro/di units media was replaced 7 months ago. I have a 5000k home depot light fixture over my chaeto on a reverse photoperiod as the display tank. Im gonna try cutting back to 10 hour photoperiod on the display tank I really am looking to starve it completely out of my tank. I am envious of all your guy's tanks and really hope to achieve that sometime in the near future. Thanks again for taking the time out to help

 

[DEEP BLUE SIX]

As long as your anemone gets atleast 8 hours of intense enough light.. and you feed it atleast a couple times per week. It should be fine if you dial back the photoperiod a bit more.

Personally I'd try 8-9 hours for a little while. See what it's like for a week or 2 and so forth. There really is nothing in the tank that needs more light than that "at this point". No corals etc.. and the fish need some to stay healthy/active. But not neccesarily that much when it's not reef.

Beyond that, as stated by various people here continue with the water changes and look into the Phosphate control methods GFO/reactor, or Phosban. There are some supplements that bind Phosphate as well which can be purchased to help. Read directions and add.
You should be able to get this into check with the above and some continued patience.

Don't know your fish that died or what else "might" have been a cause... when you did that larger change. But it really shouldn't have happened from a change like that. As long as the tank was at least semi stable for a while. 20-20-30 gals- It's still not much more than 1/4 of the volume. I suspect another stressor at the time perhaps...

On a side note, one this is cleared up for sure... before going reef-
I would consider trying to eradicate those Asterina Stars.
Perhaps a temporary Harlequin Shrimp or Wrasse.. short of pulling as many as you can out by hand. Some people don't mind them. Some do.
They breed prolifically and a population can sometimes get way out of hand.
It's gets ugly sometimes after a while with them all over. Especially when you's rather look at nothing but corals.

Some consider them to be harmless and still some others have been witnessed to be coral eaters. I've had some Asterinas eat Zoas and some other paly's.. while other corals were safe. Still others seemed to ignore all corals all together. But some clearly ate things I had. Perhaps some had taste for it and some not. But all looked the same. I got rid of them all with a combo of fish and just removing as many as I could. My losses stopped as well as the particular tank looking better without them all over.

 

[Krypt1979]

Holy Asternia Batman! They definitely like your tank lol!
But on a serious note, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the chemi-clean treatment. By itself, it is just a band aid, your correct there, but with an action plan associated with it you can say bye bye to cyano. The stuff is great to get the cyano to it's death bed, then some water changes and GFO should make it expire completely.

 

[tmz]

The chemiclean works short term but it hs crashed a few coral tanks. As the cyano dies it gives off toxins and nutrients and depletes oxygen If you use it follow the directions closely : siphon out as much cyano as you can before dosing it ; and make the recommended water changes.Run some granulated carbon after.I used it years ago and the effects were short lived. Personally, I wouldn't use it again.

Some asterina l stars eat coral flesh. There are about 35 species of asterina so telling the good from the bad is near impossible at least for me. All of them can irritate coral when you have them in great numbers.
You likely have high nutrients. I'd measure phosphate and nitrate.

Harlequin shrimp will eat them but then will starve to death as they are obligate starfish feeders unless you buy starfish to feed them regularly.

Don't know of any fish that eats them.

You can siphon them out by the hundreds off the rock and glass with a piece of flexible airline tubing with a piece of rigid airline tubing attached to the end like a wand that you can easily manuever. You won't draw much water and can just take them out ofthe buckett when you're done and reuse the water. Doing this in the am just after lights on makes it easy since many are still out on the rock and glass from nightime scavenging. For now without corals in the tank they are fine and likely beneficial consumers of diatoms and algae.As nutrients are reduced their food supply will drop and they will wane.

 

[Cyril]

haha yeah those asterinas are quite an eyesore. I am on wait for a harlequin shrimp at caribbean forest. im sure he will have himself a lil buffet. I was also told that high nutrients can cause an outbreak in them. Besides the gfo reducing the phosphates and the nitrate sponge which i dont know the name of, i was instructed to buy the pouch at the store (caribbean) and put it in my sock. Where are these nutrients coming from? How should I go about removing them? By only doing water changes i believe im missing a step if there is an underlining problem maybe underneath the rocks or in the rocks, maybe the substrate? I am doing the turkey baster method of blowing the live rock.
I am gonna buy a phosphate reactor or sponge this coming week. Which do u prefer? With using the chemiclean or red slime remover if theres still nutrients feeding the asterinas and cyano Im pretty sure it"ll come back and theres that slim chance something might die when using it. Kinda scared about losing anything else, gotten attached to them.

 

[DEEP BLUE SIX]

Just trade back the shrimp (if you get one) after your sure he's finished with those stars. Try to quarantine new rocks or corals attached to such in the future, when & if you get any. Observe what comes around before putting in your DT. That way you'll avoid future possible pests. Plenty of clean stacks of rock(pest free) have seen invaders from purchases from the store.

The pouch works as will a sponge for phosphate control. To an extent. Any reactor (though needing a tad more maintenance) is going to be much more efficient.

Your not really missing much... it just needs to be put under control and eliminated. Your on the road once you get the stuff mentioned along with regular water changes and some monitored/regulated careful feeding as to help reduction of excess.

The lighting adjustment may just help a tad but not majorly.
The chemiclean (bandaid as it is) does work and effectively helps. Cyano "will" come back. But in my experience, not as much comes back. Then following the other phosphate removal process- can speed up to getting rid of it faster. A water change should be done after treatment of course. As far as your Tang, black clowns and clean up crew. They should be quite resistant (hardy and tolerant enough) if their used to the tank. It shouldn't really bother them. If you clean up the tank so to speak and do the water change shortly after treatment. I've never seen it bother fish at all. but corals on the other hand(which you don't have any currently), could be effected. Some don't like it. I haven't seen any die from it. But you can tell, some don't like it in the water during treatment.

With that being said, I don't think it would bother your tank currently and might assist. The required water changes will remove any toxins enough to cause any problems. But is a personal choice. You can certainly do changes without, get that reactor and solve your problems without it.

 

[Tonynlo]

Bulkreefsupply makes a great GFO reactor. Couple it with a maxi jet 1200 and some high density GFO and you're golden.

 

[Cyril]

I just bought a two little fishes 550 phosphate reactor from dr fosters website should be here next week. I read that using a phosphate reactor is just another bandaid from multiple threads over the internet that it doesnt get the problem out of the tank the thing which i dont know is causing the nitrate and phosphate bloom. What is actually causing it? thank you all for your help. deep blue im gonna quarantine anything else i get from the lfs just in case anything else unwanted hitchikes on. Im still scared to do the redslime remover which i have to admit i did buy!! its next to my tank as a last resort. If the phosphate reactor doesnt work im gonna have to use it hope the bta makes it as well as my other guys.

 

[GMaquarium]

The cyano in the pictures above isn't terrible. A phosphate remover in reactor is a good idea. If you are not actively reducing po4, you are only collecting it.

Do some waterchanges with rodi water. Removing all the cyano you can see before. Pointing the powerheads towards the problem areas and cutting down on light.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

The cyano in the pictures above isn't terrible. A phosphate remover in reactor is a good idea. If you are not actively reducing po4, you are only collecting it.

x2

the battle against nuisance algae NEVER ends in closed systems.

Personally, I find nuisance alga and cyanobacteria great "indicator species" that there are problems to be addressed.

Go after the problem- not the red slime. Take care of the problem and the red slime will disappear.

 

[Cyril]

Exactly what I was thinking!!! but what is the problem? What can I do about it besides what I'm already doing? To recap Im doing regular water changes sometimes twice a week. I'm blowing off the detritus from the live rock. I've updated my lightbulbs. I'm using ro/di water. I clean my sock filter every few days or right after the turkey Baster blasting. I feed every other day lightly making sure most of it gets eaten. I have a decent Cuc. I bought a refugium with chaeto. I run matrix carbon and I clean my protein skimmers every week. Anybody have any ideas?

 

[tmz]

The problem is that there is more energy (via nutrients which contribute the sun's energy to enable life via the bonds in them ) in the tank than is being consumed by the desireable organisms in the tank leaving the leftover energy for opportunistic species like cyanobacteria and nuisance algae.. Introducing more desireable consumers like corals or select macro algaes can help but it takes a lot of growth to strip the water down to a point where the nuisance species wane. For example green micro algae will grow until phosphate is reduced to less than .03ppm It can take time too . If rocks or substrate have been exposed to high PO4 levels they will leach it back overtime. . Increasing heterotrophic bacterial activity via organic carbon dosing(vodka, vinegar, etc) may help too.
Measure your nitrate and phosphate.Keep phosphate at .05ppm or less and nitrate under 10ppm. Actively address phosphate removal via gfo, lanthanum chloride, another phosphate binder or by increasing bacterial activity via organic carbon dosing.
Food brings in nutrients( ie organic carbon, phosphate and nitrogen) even if eaten most of it passes through the consuming organisms and shows up in the water as dissolved organic carbon,ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and inorganic phospahte. Much of this is not exportable by skimming or gac although they both help significantly.
There may be issues with excess CO2 as well, cyano needs only light CO2 and water to grow and can actually contribute fixed nitrogen to the system. CO2 reacts with water and adds some carbonic acid .It also shifts ph downward as extra H protons are added from it's reaction with the water.What is your ph,slainity, alk?

The steps you have taken are prudent and helpful but you obviously need to do more or less. More surface area and light in the macroalgae fuge to ensure heavy growth with frequent harvesting, more rock or sustrate surfaces to support denitrifying bacteria for example , active PO4 export. Less food and /or less CO2