Ich? Achilles Tang in Quarantine.

[mickey204]

Hey Guys,

I have an Achilles tang in quarantine since purchase (last sunday)

He was right from Hawaii.....diver to airplane to my LFS

He is in a fully built Quarantine/frag tank with liverock/skimmer/etc. As soon as I saw this (this morning) the return line has been shut off to isolate it. 40 Gal sump plumbed to 2 - 30Gal tanks. One for quarantine, one for frags. (both are technically quarantines)

The quarantine is completely separate from my 220Gal drop off reef(400 gal with sump) display system.

3. What is SG of this aquarium? How measured?

Salinity is 1.025, Measured with a recently calibrated refracometer (2 refracometers to be exact)

Temp - 78.5
Ph - 8.15
Nitrate - 0
Nitrite - 0
Amonia - 0

All done daily with salifert test kits, as well as an amonia alert badge.

4. When was the last fish added to this aquarium?

Added date of purchase (last sunday.....7 days ago)

5. Was it quarantined? If so, how? And how long? Was it prophylactically treated? How?

As states, has been in quarantine for 7 days, I have not treated anything. I believe in closely monitoring the fish before chemicals or anything is implemented.

8. Please describe in detail, the appearance of the fish? If there is one or more pimples, are they lumpy? What color?

It has white things attached to it. They seem to be more long then circular, granted I havent witnessed Itch so I can't be sure. Please see photo's for explanation.

9. Please describe the behavior of the fish as best you can. Is it acting reclusive? Is it always up towards the top of the aquarium? Is it avoiding light? How active is the fish?

Fish is active, never hides, stays out in the open. I have a huge koralia rockin in the tank as well as a submersible filter. Fish is cruising around displaying active (somewhat bored) behavior, When I drop in his nori on a liverock he does his swim around 5-10 times then digs in. At times he does rub his body on the glass bottom as well as this piece of rock, not alot though, only a few times in the course of 30 minutes.

10. Is the fish eating? What?

He's pigging out on my nori sandwichs.

Green nori, lighly soaked then spectrum pellets grinded up sprinkled on then eye dropped amino fatty acid supplements ontop. This is then rolled up and attached to a piece of liverock) I'm trying to get him onto spectrum pellets at the moment as the Chevron in the other tank is already onto them pigging out.

He eats morning and evening. (techinically all day feeding/grazing as I put in a good amount of nori goodness on the rock and come home to a completely clean rock)

If anyone can chime in with any knowledge would be greatly appreciated as the other quarantine tank is housing a small Chevron tang as well. He is healthy displaying no issues and is already eating spectrum pellets like a champ. Both tanks are isolated from each other since I saw this on the achilles this morning. I an closely monitoring the chevron as he will be treated the same as the achilles if necessary.

I know timing is critical in the ich stages so any help asap is greatly appreciated.

I have the tank transfer method ready to go if this is ich.

 

[Haffs09]

Definitely doesn't look like ich, but rather it appears the fish has flukes. Do you have any Prazi-Pro? It is an easy treatment to administer and you will see the flukes start to fall off after the first dose. I would treat three rounds.

My achilles and powder blue tangs both came in with flukes (acquired separately) and responded well to the treatment.

 

[caribfan]

I am a big fan of the Freshwater Dip method to, 1. determine if it is truly flukes, and 2. to provide some immediate relief to the fish.

I definitely second the use of Prazi Pro, or De Los is another product that is available and is a good treatment. The upside off De Los is that it kills fluke eggs, but the downside is that the treatment period is 4 weeks.

If you've never done the freshwater dip before, but sure to match temperature and pH and ideally use water from an existing freshwater aquarium. If that is not available, just be certain to dechlorinate the water and like I said earlier, match temp and pH.

I've had a lot of success with dips, including two purple tilefish that have been with me now for more than a year.

Good luck!

 

[mickey204]

Hey guys, yesterday I was a bit weary noone was responding on here, so I took matters into my own hands.

Through my own observation by sitting next to the achilles all day, I noticed them:
A}The shape of them was more of a worm-like
B) being able to move
C) appearing to be attached by hooks

In the afternoon I hit up my LFS, and got some goodies. Tank transfer method is all ready to go with a container circulating incase of ich later on.

I administered prazi-pro yesterday afternoon, and this morning almost all the parasites have dissapeared off of the fish.

He is eating the same and now ontop of the brightwell amino acid supplements/spectrum grinded up on the nori (nori sandwichs) I'm also soaking his food in garlic guard.

Thanks for the 2 replys so far, it's made me feel like I'm on the right path. I'll take your advice and adminster 3 doses.

It says to wait at least 3 days before starting the second round. Yet on the package says to treat 5-7 days.

Do I wait 5-7 days then re-treat, or just the 3 and re-treat, then another 3 and retreat then wait another 5-7 days? What would you suggest haffs? Seeing as how you've gone through this with your achilles as well.

Lastly, will the prazi pro just die out in the system or do I need to use carbon or huge water changes to get rid of it? I understand some guys rock prazi-pro 1-2 times a year on there display for good measure so it must be fine staying in the system for the inhabitants.

After deciding it was flukes, I turned the return line on to connect the system back to the chevron, as I felt it was my duty to treat him as well no matter how well he is eating.

Thanks for the responses guys, after watching numerous posters in there threads who provide hardly any info and terrible pictures get a bunch of advice, and I followed the "sticky to post" to a T yet received nothing all day, it was a little discouraging haha.

I have yet to do a freshwater dip as I wont lie, it scares me a bit!!!!

 

[b0bab0ey]

I would wait 5 days, then re-treat. Prazi kills the worms, but not the eggs they leave behind. So you have to administer a 2nd dose to kill the next generation before they can lay eggs of their own. It might not even be a bad idea to hit your Achilles with a 3rd dose just to be safe. Prazi only remains active in the water for 48-72 hours after you dose. But it's still very important to do at least a 25% WC before administering the 2nd, 3rd dose, etc.

 

[Haffs09]

I'm glad you were heading down the right path prior to getting a response. It's always comforting to have supporting comments confirming your actions.

I treated every 5 days, with ~50% water change in between doses. As long as the fish is eating, I'd stick with that. At the conclusion of treatment, I performed another large water change and then used carbon in my HOB filter.

It probably isn't a bad idea to do some preventative treatment for ich too. I used cupramine successfully with my achilles. I would have liked to try the tank transfer method, but I was QTing multiple fish in multiple tanks and didn't have spare tanks to make it happen.

Gorgeous fish too! Good luck

 

[caribfan]

I definitely understand the hesitancy to do a freshwater dip, I was nervous the first time I did one.

But I can say that you become more comfortable the more you do them. I have gone as far as to dip a moorish idol for up to 25 minutes, and have had no ill side effects.

In my experience, you see what you are going to see in the first 3 to 4 minutes, and that pro-longed dip is not necessary, especially if you are going to be treating for the parasite afterwards.

The obvious plus is the immediate removal of the parasites and obviously determining if there is indeed a fluke investation.

I'm glad to hear your plan of action is working, I hope your fish live a long and happy life, it is a gorgeous specimen.

Lastly, definitely second the use of cupramine as a preventative treatment for Ich. I just recently put PBT through that treatment and a six week quarantine period and he is doing very well.

 

[loup]

Since you already setup the tank for TT method. I would go ahead and perform the transfer. I perform TT on all incoming fish no matter if they show sign or not. During the TT, I do parzi pro also.

 

[mickey204]

Hey guys,

Heres the update.

The flukes appear to almost be completely gone off of his body.

However I've noticed a whitish bump over his eye and one by his lower chest (if a fish had a chest that is)

I've also noticed a few select white specks on his body.

I'm assuming this is the start of ich and I'm thinking of putting the chevron with him and doing a cupramine treatment.

I'm going to go with the fact he was upset and stressed from shipping/lfs/my place/flukes and the ich is starting.

However I'm not positive its ich.

Granted I may be overly paranoid however in central canada chevrons and achilles are far from cheap, and they were both my dream tangs, so I will do anything necessary to give them the best shot at survival. Not to mention these guys came right from hawaii a week ago so I'm extremely lucky to have the opportunity to have these fish.

Can I dose the cupramine if I already have Prazipro in the system? I would be taking the chevron out of his 30 gal and putting him with the achilles in the same tank, shutting off the return line for the system and allowing it to run fallow for the next 18 weeks. (will use for coral frags)

The chevron is 2" in size and is eating like a beast, is insanely active.

Once the cupramine has done its course, I'm assuming I then use activated carbon and do 25% water changes until its all clear.

I just want to make sure I do all the necessary steps as I'm currently dosing the prazipro as of yesterday afternoon.

Can I use prime with cupramine if ammonia shows? If not, how do I combat ammonia levels during a cupramine treatment, lastly do you do any water changes during the cupramine treatment? I'm assuming no as this would water down the dose of cupramine.

My apologies for all the questions, I've been searching and researching like crazy, It's almost an information overload.

Or do I just say screw it and throw them in the mixed saltwater I have sitting in a bin and start the TTM?

Dont know which method to pull the trigger on. The cupramine will address more then one issue, whereas the TTM will only combat the ich if he even has it.

Here are the photos. One bump above HIS right eye. One by lower belly and a few tiny white specks here or there.

 

[caribfan]

I couldn't conclusively diagnose it is C. Irritans from the pictures above. If it is C. Irritans, I can't speak highly enough of Cupramine.

I also do water changes when using Cupramine. I have a 40 gallon QT, so I will generally do a 10 gallon water change, and dose the water being added back into the tank with 1.0 or 2.0 ml of cupramine, depending on the current concentration in the QT. If you have reached the desired effective concentration, then 2.0 ml of cupramine in 10 gallons of water should be sufficient.

It is also really helpful to have a cu test kit on hand and to monitor the concentration throughout the two week treatment period to be sure that a potential water change doesn't lower the concentration in the tank.

Additionally, I would not recommend dosing Prazipro and Cupramine together. I have been told by a very respected aquarist that it is not advisable.

If it were me, I would continue the Prazi Pro course to completion and then begin the cupramine treatment once the prazi pro has been removed from the water.

I can't remember, is your entire tank being treated right now with prazi? Are there other fish in your tank that have been exposed to these fish, or water that these fish were in? If that is the case and these fish are infected with C. Irritans, than the rest of your tank runs the risk of being contaminated as well. Not trying to stress you, but just wanted you to be aware.

 

[Mrscribbled]

I couldn't conclusively diagnose it is C. Irritans from the pictures above. If it is C. Irritans, I can't speak highly enough of Cupramine.

I also do water changes when using Cupramine. I have a 40 gallon QT, so I will generally do a 10 gallon water change, and dose the water being added back into the tank with 1.0 or 2.0 ml of cupramine, depending on the current concentration in the QT. If you have reached the desired effective concentration, then 2.0 ml of cupramine in 10 gallons of water should be sufficient.

It is also really helpful to have a cu test kit on hand and to monitor the concentration throughout the two week treatment period to be sure that a potential water change doesn't lower the concentration in the tank.

Additionally, I would not recommend dosing Prazipro and Cupramine together. I have been told by a very respected aquarist that it is not advisable.

If it were me, I would continue the Prazi Pro course to completion and then begin the cupramine treatment once the prazi pro has been removed from the water.

I can't remember, is your entire tank being treated right now with prazi? Are there other fish in your tank that have been exposed to these fish, or water that these fish were in? If that is the case and these fish are infected with C. Irritans, than the rest of your tank runs the risk of being contaminated as well. Not trying to stress you, but just wanted you to be aware.

Prozi pro can be used in conjunction with cupramine. The way it looks this fish is by itself in qt.

 

[DownwardDawg]

From what I've read, do NOT use Prime or anything else like that with Cupramine. I have fish in Copper Power right now and I'm battling ammonia with water changes.

 

[mickey204]

I couldn't conclusively diagnose it is C. Irritans from the pictures above. If it is C. Irritans, I can't speak highly enough of Cupramine.

I also do water changes when using Cupramine. I have a 40 gallon QT, so I will generally do a 10 gallon water change, and dose the water being added back into the tank with 1.0 or 2.0 ml of cupramine, depending on the current concentration in the QT. If you have reached the desired effective concentration, then 2.0 ml of cupramine in 10 gallons of water should be sufficient.

It is also really helpful to have a cu test kit on hand and to monitor the concentration throughout the two week treatment period to be sure that a potential water change doesn't lower the concentration in the tank.

Additionally, I would not recommend dosing Prazipro and Cupramine together. I have been told by a very respected aquarist that it is not advisable.

If it were me, I would continue the Prazi Pro course to completion and then begin the cupramine treatment once the prazi pro has been removed from the water.

I can't remember, is your entire tank being treated right now with prazi? Are there other fish in your tank that have been exposed to these fish, or water that these fish were in? If that is the case and these fish are infected with C. Irritans, than the rest of your tank runs the risk of being contaminated as well. Not trying to stress you, but just wanted you to be aware.

As stated in the beginning, the fish were put directly into quarantine from date of purchase. Nothing has gone near my DT. Any equipment being used is soaked in vinegar and rinsed thoroughly then dried before used.

The Achilles is in 1, 30 gal. The Chevron is in the other 30 gal. The 2 quarantine tanks are tied in together, so I'm treating the chevron with whatever method I choose to do with the achilles. I'm going to take your suggestions and continue with the prazi-pro for now, and closely monitor the achilles to see how it progresses. Then most likely do cupramine.

 

[caribfan]

As stated in the beginning, the fish were put directly into quarantine from date of purchase. Nothing has gone near my DT. Any equipment being used is soaked in vinegar and rinsed thoroughly then dried before used.

The Achilles is in 1, 30 gal. The Chevron is in the other 30 gal. The 2 quarantine tanks are tied in together, so I'm treating the chevron with whatever method I choose to do with the achilles. I'm going to take your suggestions and continue with the prazi-pro for now, and closely monitor the achilles to see how it progresses. Then most likely do cupramine.

Sorry for the confusion on my end, I misread your initial post about the two 30 gallons tied together, and then having a 40 gallon sump. I really like that idea for a QT set up, I currently use a 50 breeder with a small section partitioned off for a return pump and filtration media for my QT

I'd love to see pictures of your whole set up, the drop off idea has intrigued me for some time.

When the prazi treatment is finished, be sure to remove any rock that is in your QT before treating with Cupramine.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Be careful with cupramine, Ive killed fish and hear regularly of others doing the same, using the dose regimen in the instructions.

Very true.IMO & IME; Cupramine should be dosed at about .35-.40 ppm. The bottle says .50. Also, if time allows, I prefer to get to the .35-.40 level over 5-7 days, the bottle says 2-3 days. If you dose slowly and watch fish closely; Cu can be raised and lowered if they react to it.SeaChem has had a lot of feedback and these levels are fine with them. A lot of folks have said that SeaChem is going to re-label the Cupramine package. SeaChem has great tech support, IMO & IME, I use them often. (888-seachem (I think).

 

[mickey204]

Hey guys,

Quick update.

Achilles is eating his nori sandwichs like a champ, still "Acting" interested in pellets only to tease me into thinking he'll take them haha.

Chevron is doing awesome for a little guy (under 2 inches), got him from Hawaii as well during the same order.

So far I've gotten both fish to eat prepared foods within 2 days. Chevron is already eating spectrum pellets like crazy so now I can focus all my attention on the Achilles to get him on to spectrum pellets as I believe this is ideal for long-term success with tangs.

IF everything goes as planned I'll post the information in the Achilles tang primer as there appears to be a "If it doesnt eat infront of you at the LFS it will die" mentality which I've proved is false (as long as you invest the time into this amazing fish.)

All white bumps or spots the Achilles had are gone and I've dosed another round of Prazi pro as well to be safe, I'm assuming the few white areas were slight infections from the flukes and just needed time to heal.

I have the Cupramine sitting on standby just to be safe. We're approaching the 3 week mark of quarantine and I'm going to quietly hope for the best.

I'll be doing any aquascaping and rearranging of corals before they go in to minimize stress.

I want to put them in over xmas holidays however I'll probably wait the full 6 weeks :sad2: It sucks as Id love to be able to watch them in the display for my xmas holidays however I'd hate to have an issue in the display due to my impatience.

 

[Holsteiner]

Congrats so far with your success! I DIDN'T do that with my achilles and ended up going through a bout of ich that he thankfully got through. He's been in my display now for almost 6 months, but i'll never make that mistake again and will always QT for the full 6 weeks ;-)

 

[mickey204]

Congrats so far with your success! I DIDN'T do that with my achilles and ended up going through a bout of ich that he thankfully got through. He's been in my display now for almost 6 months, but i'll never make that mistake again and will always QT for the full 6 weeks ;-)

Good call thanks for reminding me how important it is to wait the 6 weeks haha.

Soooooo hard sometimes.

Granted its so much easier to monitor him and fatten him up/try to get him on other prepared foods in quarantine.

Now that I have a proper quarantine setup running, I can't imagine not doing it just for the ease of getting the fish to eat. The parasites and treating with medication is all a bonus from there.