Ich again

[deleau]

I feel for you folks on this thread having issues with Ich problems especially given that it seems like you are all giving it your best effort (and following sound protocol) to eradicate the infections.

To that end, I would also encourage none of you to give up and/or quit the hobby.

Take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt (okay, bad expression considering the topic), but after you finish the fallow/QT protocols, if you still end up with Ich in your DT, you could try living with it.

I say that because this happened to me. I have always tried to be diligent with both my nano and big tanks. I had an outbreak in the nano, left it fallow and have never seen signs since. On the big tank, I have QT'd/dipped everything from the get go, but I made a mistake somewhere and Ich got in the big tank. I had one tang perish in the DT from it. None of my other fish seem bothered; they are all fat and happy. Right now, I'm content with it that way. I still TTM & Prazi all new fish for at least 30 days to treat other issues and to get them comfortable and eating, but I know Ich is most likely still present in the DT but it's been at least 6 months since I've seen any fish show signs (and I currently have a tang in the DT without issue).

I would rather not have it in my tank, and all our tanks are unique, but I feel that with high water quality and fat, low stress fish, I can live with it for now. (Disclaimer: I've got some fish that cost hundreds of dollars...that might change when I want to add a thousand dollar fish.)

TLDR: Don't get discouraged and quit over this. You all are doing the right thing and the best you can. If it turns out that wasn't enough, perhaps you can learn to live with it and still have a thriving tank. Good luck!

 

[snorvich]

I agree! Hopefully you will feel better soon, and I really appreciate your input. I will keep you all posted after my fallow period. The quarantine tank is in another room, and I'm going 12 weeks fallow.

And I certainly understand not wanting to argue, but it is good to get different input from you guys. I highly value what snorvich has to say!!

Having the quarantine tank in a different room is critical.

"Infective dinospores can be transported in aerosolized water droplets (Roberts-Thompson et al 2006). Droplets from static systems were shown to be transmissible for up to 1.44 feet however droplets from dynamic ones were shown to be transmissible up to 9.8 feet. This means that adjacent aquaria, (and potentially ponds), could spread the infection of parasites such as cryptocaryon irritans, amyloodinium, etc. to other aquaria nearby. As such that aquaria that are situated close together should be covered especially if one is known to have or have had a parasite." These references were originally from Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment By Edward J. Noga but after additional use of Google Scholar, there were other examples such as Stephen Spotte. So bottom line is respect aerosol transmission of parasites between proximate aquaria.

 

[Giovanni]

I was only relaying my experience and in no way mean to argue with anyone about the validity of a particular approach. I know TTM works for me and for me is the least stressful for the fish. I was not successful with the fallow period for some reason. I still do not know why. I have to question if due to the incomplete treatment of ich by distributors, LFS and hobbits, a new strain of ich has emerged much the same way as MERSA. IMHO rapid evolution is a real possibility.

I ended up removing the PBT and Achilles tang. I am sure I still have ich in my DT. While I do see one or two spots from time to time, the remaining fish show no other signs and seem to tolerate it well. Since that time I have treated new fish additions with TTM. I do not want to introduce any new strains of ich. I have decided not to add any new fish for at least a year.

 

[Giovanni]

Steve,

I read the following on another website "If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months."

In your research of the topic, have you come across any scientific publication with a similar finding?

 

[seamonster124]

Have u guys thought about just living with it? Keep them healthy and fat and they'll fight it. Maybe I'm reading this wrong but u guys are dumping fish in not cycled QT tanks with new water?

 

[lespaul339]

Deleted

 

[lespaul339]

I have to question if due to the incomplete treatment of ich by distributors, LFS and hobbits, a new strain of ich has emerged much the same way as MERSA. IMHO rapid evolution is a real possibility.

I agree. And if you think about it, a distributors tank is the ideal place for a super bug to develop. It's constantly being emptied and restocked full of fish. The parasite has the ultimate place to thrive.

 

[snorvich]

Steve,

I read the following on another website "If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has "˜worn itself out' and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months."

In your research of the topic, have you come across any scientific publication with a similar finding?

Yes. If you want citations, try Google Scholar. There is also suggestion that fish that survive MI can develop temporary (six month) immunity which coupled with the single strain loss of robustness can be relevant. The problem is that MI is exponential unless eliminated causing fish to die and those fish with immunity are still carriers of it.

 

[snorvich]

I agree. And if you think about it, a distributors tank is the ideal place for a super bug to develop. It's constantly being emptied and restocked full of fish. The parasite has the ultimate place to thrive.

Well, there is another contributing factor. We know that a low level of copper can mask parasites; it seems highly probable that a strain of MI has evolved as a consequence. I am always reluctant to purchase fish from sources running a low level of copper.

 

[tassod]

I agree. And if you think about it, a distributors tank is the ideal place for a super bug to develop. It's constantly being emptied and restocked full of fish. The parasite has the ultimate place to thrive.

+1

Now how do we identify a new strain's lifecycle? We could be talking 6+ months here and IMO it would be more feasible to break down and start over.

 

[Giovanni]

Have u guys thought about just living with it?

This is what I am doing now. However I have eliminated the fish super sensitive to ich and will not be adding anything to my DT for a year. I hope that temporary immunity and with the single strain loss of robustness will lead to a DT free of ich in a years time. After a year I will purchase another PBT, TTM him and QT for 3 months. Once I am certain he does not have ich, I will start to do water changes from the DT in the QT to see if he developed ich. A kind of litmus test.



In the mean time I plan on starting an anemone tank. :fun2:

 

[mrguppy]

In my case, the fish didn't survive after they had ich. So, there was no chance that they re-infected the reef. Plus I didn't add anything to the reef except tap-off water and a few pieces of flake food 3x a week
The new fish I added went through the following six phases for a little-over 5 weeks in the QT.
First: Days 1 -2 observation only.
Second: Days 3 - 10 Seachem Para Guard
Third: Days 11 - 13 added carbon filter and performed a 20 % water change
Fourth: Days 14 -21 PraziPro
Fifth: Days 22 - 24 added carbon filter and performed a 20 % water change
Sixth: Days 25 - 39 Seachem Cupramine

I just hope this helps. It really stinks losing fish again to ich (really stinks losing them period) after leaving your reef fallow for the recommended time period or longer.