Ich? Brooklynella? Please help...

[padair]

I recently purchased 5 fish (blue hippo tang, Desjardin sailfin, bluestreak cleaner wrasse, naso tang and butterfly copperband) from my LFS to replace some that died over that past year from my DT. (200gal system) My QT is 65gal and I put all 5 in there. I actually purchased 4 about 2 weeks ago and 1 this past Friday (copperband). They all seemed to be doing well in the QT and because there is no sump I'm doing regular water changes and keeping up with testing. pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate all in check. When the Nitrates start to show up I've been doing 20% water changes in the QT with similar temp water and salinity. (1.023 or so)

I've had problems with aiptasia in my DT so over the past 6 months I've tried to get copperbands in there and also peppermint shrimp. Problems though... 1st...I had (its now been traded in) a snowflake eel that actually attacked and ate the peppermint shrimp. I've also tried twice to introduce a copperband to my DT once with and once without an isolation box. Both times I 've had the copperband killed by an aggressive kole tang. Not sure why it is like that with copperbands, he gets along with all other fish in the tank. Anyway my LFS said while quarantining the new fish put the kole tang in there with the others in the isolation box and since it was in new suroundings he would accept those fish and move them all back to the DT together after the full quarantine.

After 2-3 days of the kole tang in the isolation I let him loose this past weekend and he seemed fine and wasn't bothering the other fish. All 6 kept eating normally and seemed ok. Last night we when we were putting the QT to bed we noticed the blue hippo tang clearly had ich, bunch of white dots on it. I've battled ich once before a few years ago when I got into the hobby and before I had a QT tank. At that time I purchased the QT and saved about 10 of 12 fish using cupramine. I've read since then hyposalinity is less stress on the fish so I started a hyposalinity treatment in the QT. I did several partial water changes from last night to today to lower the salinity, around 1.009 now. After about 24 hours the hippo tang has fewer white spots on it (or so it seems) but also my research has taught me today there is Cryptocaryon (ich) and Amyloodinium. From what I see in demo pics etc they look very similar so I'm not sure what the hippo really has? But I also noticed the kole tang looked more pale than normal last day or so, thought it was maybe a bit of stress moving tanks so didn't think much of it. As of now it looks like it has its skin peeling and as the skin peels his regular colour is beneath? I've read up on that and it sounds like a classic brooklynella. Also, the copperband has now passed. It didn't show any signs of the ich or what the kole has so that is a strange one. It was the smallest of all the fish it also was the most recent addition and I'm wondering if it was sick or had something from the LFS?

Anyway, i'm at the point where I'm not sure what to do? I've checked over as best as possible all of the other fish in the DT and everyone looks normal. (foxface, 2 clowns, 6 line wrasse, firegobby, tomini tang) I only have one QT so setting up anything else right now would take a while to get purchased/setup. I've read up on Brooklynella and sounds like fresh rodi water dips may help? My primary LFS is closed now and I called a backup place and they didn't have any formalin.

Should I keep the tank at hypo? Should I try dipping the kole tang or any or all of the fish? Raise temp help kill any disease? Good news is I just put in a cube of spirulina brine shrimp and they all seemed to find some and eat it.

I'll see if I can get some hi-res pics added to this post now.

thanks for any help/advice.

 

[padair]

 

[padair]

 

[padair]

In order for us to provide the best possible help, please provide the following information. It will really help us and it will be information we need.

1. How old is this aquarium?
DT 20 months, QT 10 months

2. If less than six months old, what is ammonia level?
ammonia 0 on both

3. What is SG of this aquarium? How measured?
1.023 DT, 1.009 QT - used refractometer

4. When was the last fish added to this aquarium?
DT - 2+ months, QT 4 days

5. Was it quarantined? If so, how? And how long? Was it prophylactically treated? How?

I QT tank everything, 4 weeks. Not treated

6. If you are using a copper based medication, which one? How often do you measure level? When?
not this time

7. If you are using hyposalinity, how did you calibrate your refractometer?
calibrated with fresh rodi water to 1.000

8. Please describe in detail, the appearance of the fish? If there is one or more pimples, are they lumpy? What color?
see all pics above

9. Please describe the behavior of the fish as best you can. Is it acting reclusive? Is it always up towards the top of the aquarium? Is it avoiding light? How active is the fish?
DT - everyone seems to be doing fine, eating, no issues that I can see. QT - see story above, fish are active and eating. Kole tang looks like its peeling skin and hippo tang has white dots. the blue streak cleaner wrasse is constantly picking away at the kole tang and hippo tang. It also visits the sailfin every now and then... I haven't seen it go near the naso tang. the copperband is dead.

10. Is the fish eating? What?
Eating melted cubes of brine and Mysis shrimp and spirulina Mysis shrimp. also julians seaweed paper around a rock with elastic. same for both QT and DT.

If you could copy and paste this in your post filling in whatever answers you can, it would help us greatly and speed up our ability to answer. Thanks in advance!!
no thank you! looking forward to some replies. thx.

 

[padair]

The kole tang has taken a turn for the worst.

Its breathing is much more laboured and now it isn't swimming. Just laying on his side puffing away. Don't know what else to do, don't have any formalin. I took some fresh RODI water in a bucket and got it to same temp as QT tank. I agitated it pretty good before placing the fish in. I scooped him out of QT and put him in the bucket. It kicked around aggressively for about 5 seconds then it didn't move at all, not even obvious breathing signs. I thought it was dead as it didn't move at all any more but noticed a little moving from his mouth. I left him there about 3-4 minutes and then put him back into the QT. He isn't swimming around or doing anything, just laying on the rock rubble breathing heavy. I'm worried about my 4 other fish in the QT now.

Wish I knew what to do? Should I try dipping them all? I do have about 60 gallons of rodi water ready. I have salt if I need to mix it quickly. I do have some seachem stability as well for a rapid startup. Should I try a drastic fresh dip of all while dumping the main tank totally and getting rid of the live rock rubble and all filter media and clean QT as best as possible and then put all the fish back in new clean QT water? I know seems drastic but I'm worried the others will all go downhill quickly like the kole tang now. The hippo tang still has the white dots and the naso tang is now showing some white dots too. The cleaner wrasse seems the same and the sailfin looks as it did in the pictures above earlier.

 

[Deinonych]

Really need pictures for diagnosis. I don't understand the LFS recommendation to move a presumably healthy fish (the Kole) from the DT into QT with the other unquarantined fish. Makes absolutely NO sense. From your description, the Kole likely picked up a disease from one of the new acquisitions and is rapidly succumbing to it. Very unfortunate. Timeline suggests velvet or brooklyella, but would need pictures to confirm. The fact that the copperband has also died is concerning. I would cease FW dips until you know what you are dealing with. The Kole may be too far gone to save at this point.

 

[padair]

Whatever is happening... it is happening fast. The hippo tang, sailfin and naso are now breathing very heavy and are lying on their sides on the bottom of the QT. I'm still not sure what is going on. The cleaner wrasse is just picking away at all of them. I just did a 4 minute fresh water dip on all of them and also read hyposalinity and cupramine (from seachem support forum) can be used at the same time. I'm not sure if whatever else is going is velvet or brooklynella. the only one that has look of peeling skin is the kole tang the others have that silky velvet look to them so I don't now. I guess I'll see who is still alive by the morning and try to track down some formalin.

 

[padair]

Really need pictures for diagnosis. I don't understand the LFS recommendation to move a presumably healthy fish (the Kole) from the DT into QT with the other unquarantined fish. Makes absolutely NO sense. From your description, the Kole likely picked up a disease from one of the new acquisitions and is rapidly succumbing to it. Very unfortunate. Timeline suggests velvet or brooklyella, but would need pictures to confirm. The fact that the copperband has also died is concerning. I would cease FW dips until you know what you are dealing with. The Kole may be too far gone to save at this point.

There are a pile of pictures in the second post. Can you not see them? The fish were in the QT tank for about 2 1/2 weeks and the move of the healthy fish to the QT tank was to try and get it to be less aggressive towards its new tank mates. There was not any indication that the 5 in QT were sick in anyway. The kole tang has been very aggressive to anything new coming into the tank and this was a recommendation to try and make him less aggressive and accept new tank mates by placing him in there in his own isolation box to get use to the fish. After a few days of that they all seemed to get along for about 3-4 days... then all of this happened.

 

[ThRoewer]

I would dose Chloroquine Phosphate (CP = NLS Ick-Shield Powder) right now and not care too much about narrowing down the diagnosis. If it is velvet you wont have much time. And CP has also shown to be effective against Ich, uronema and brook. That's pretty much all the usual suspects.

 

[ThRoewer]

There are a pile of pictures in the second post. Can you not see them? ...

I don't see any pictures, not even the little broken link boxes.

 

[padair]

pictures.

pictures.

the img tag worked for the 2nd and 3rd post from me.. .not sure why no one else can see them. I will attach them here also.

PS. The kole tang has past now. The way I see it going no one will survive until morning... they are all going down hill with rapid breathing and lying on the bottom of the tank. All except that cleaner wrasse. he seems himself so far...

 

[padair]

pictures 2

pictures 2

more pics

 

[padair]

pics 3

pics 3

more pics.

abviously when those were taken the kole tang was still alive and the others were doing better. its now ~5 hrs later and the hippo, sailfin and naso are all heading the same direction as the kole tang. I don't have any CP or I would try anything right now. Currently on 1.009 hypo and initial dosing for 60gal of cupramine. It is definitely more than just ick, regardless if it is velvet or brook it seems far too advanced now to even try and rush out and get CP in the morning.

 

[Deinonych]

Looks like Brooklynella on the Kole, and a pretty advanced case of it. Not surprised he died. The hippo looks like it has crypto (ich), but given the infection on the Kole, it has been exposed to Brook as well (as have all other fish). Cupramine will not help these fish. They need to be treated with Formalin dips ASAP, as Brooklynella can progress extremely rapidly. After each dip, the fish should be placed in a clean QT to avoid reinfection. If you don't have Formalin or CP on hand, I agree they will likely not make it until morning.

More info here: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388437

 

[Deinonych]

The kole tang has been very aggressive to anything new coming into the tank and this was a recommendation to try and make him less aggressive and accept new tank mates by placing him in there in his own isolation box to get use to the fish.

I get that, but it's extremely bad practice to expose a healthy fish to unquarantined animals (for reasons that are obvious in this case). I hope you won't be taking this LFS's advice in the future, as it has exacted a high cost on these fish. Sorry for your losses.

 

[padair]

Looks like Brooklynella on the Kole, and a pretty advanced case of it. Not surprised he died. The hippo looks like it has crypto (ich), but given the infection on the Kole, it has been exposed to Brook as well (as have all other fish). Cupramine will not help these fish. They need to be treated with Formalin dips ASAP, as Brooklynella can progress extremely rapidly. After each dip, the fish should be placed in a clean QT to avoid reinfection. If you don't have Formalin or CP on hand, I agree they will likely not make it until morning.

More info here: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388437

Is brooklynella something that is always in marine aquariums and looking for the right factors to 'break out' or does it have to be introduced? I've tried to read up on the lifecycle of it and it seems quicker than regular ich. Which leads me to believe it came in from the copperband bought last Thursday which past first.... which has now taken out the kole tang and the hippo, sailfin, wrasse, naso tang are not far behind.

 

[ThRoewer]

Brook is a parasite that is usually found on freshly imported fish.
To my understanding it can be present on healthy fish without making them sick or causing symptoms. However, if these fish are shipped ammonia can build up and "burn" the fish's skin and thus make it vulnerable for a full blown brook outbreak. At that point it can and likely will spread to other fish.

I give every new fish a formalin dip before he even goes into the QT.

 

[padair]

ThRoewer/Deinonych - thanks for the replies. Much to my surprise all the remaining fish are alive still this am. When I first turned the QT lights on the only fish that was vertical was the sailfin. The naso and hippo were all lying on their side on the rocks with laboured breathing. The wrasse buried itself in the live rock rubble in the bottom. In an effort that maybe nothing is better than something I matched the QT hypo SG (1.009) and temp (aprox 77degC) solution in a Rubbermaid tub with fresh RODI, and I got a power head near the top aerating the heck out of the water. I put all 4 fish in it and quickly drained the QT tank. Didn't have any bleach or other disinfectant but I emptied all the live rock (dying anyway from copper?) and emptied all the water as best I could and wiped down the inside. I then filled with fresh RODI 1/2 salted and 1/2 un-salted to match the hypo 1.009 again and the temp was about the same. I treated water with stability for startup and then did initial dose of cupramine as per directions per volume on the QT and put the fish back in.

I have no live rock in the bottom of QT. What is best way to handle ammonia and bio process etc in a QT tank without any established bio filter? The cupramine directions said to remove all filters media and I did last night. I suppose the HOB wheels may still have a bit... but??? Normally my QT tank is established and I put in any new purchase for 4 weeks and then if all is normal I move them over to the DT. Not sure how to handle a glass floor QT but I'm going to read some stickies now and see if I can figure it out in a hurry. Its a few hours before any LFS open but as soon as they do I am going to try and track down some formalin or CP or something to try and help these guys out. Any other tips on a emergency QT setup with glass bottom now?

Fish update.. about 1/2hr after put in the QT tank the hippo and the wrasse are atleast vertical and swimming around a bit with the sailfin, The naso is sill very rough, lying on bottom on its side, laboured breathing. Wondering if the copper/hypo is having some effect? If it wasn't brook... maybe ich or velvet or a combination? I'll try to get updated pictures now.

 

[padair]

updated pics

updated pics

some pics after QT was emptied and filled with fresh water as specified above.

 

[Deinonych]

I have no live rock in the bottom of QT. What is best way to handle ammonia and bio process etc in a QT tank without any established bio filter? The cupramine directions said to remove all filters media and I did last night. I suppose the HOB wheels may still have a bit... but??? Normally my QT tank is established and I put in any new purchase for 4 weeks and then if all is normal I move them over to the DT. Not sure how to handle a glass floor QT but I'm going to read some stickies now and see if I can figure it out in a hurry. Its a few hours before any LFS open but as soon as they do I am going to try and track down some formalin or CP or something to try and help these guys out. Any other tips on a emergency QT setup with glass bottom now?

I use ceramic media (like SeaChem Matrix) in a HOB filter and seed with Bio-spira for bare-bottom QTs. Never have an issue with ammonia using this method. Not sure why Cupramine would require removal of media, although I suppose the media could adsorb some of the medication. I'm not a fan of copper medications, and prefer to use Tank Transfer for elimination of Cryptocaryon.

Fish update.. about 1/2hr after put in the QT tank the hippo and the wrasse are atleast vertical and swimming around a bit with the sailfin, The naso is sill very rough, lying on bottom on its side, laboured breathing. Wondering if the copper/hypo is having some effect? If it wasn't brook... maybe ich or velvet or a combination? I'll try to get updated pictures now.

It is almost definitely Brooklynella from the pictures you have posted. It's possible the fish also have Crypto and velvet. When the diagnosis is unclear, chloroquine phosphate is the recommended treatment, as it treats most protozoan infections. You can get it at Amazon if your LFS doesn't carry it: http://www.amazon.com/New-Life-Spectrum-Shield-Powder/dp/B00MNQWACU