"ICH FREE TANK" Quest Begins
- Thread starter Triggerfish
- Start date
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Triggerfish
Active member
yeah,,it seems to be interesting..needless to say,,i chose not to experiment to see if in fact that would work out.
Triggerfish
Active member
<font color=ff0000><font size=4>UPDATE </font></font>
Quarantine Period = Round 2: Week 5
(This is about the time i gave up last time due to lack of patience..not this time..going the full 8 weeks.)
I lost my toby puffer the other day. was looking bad due to some secondary infection.
Fish will remain in quarantine for 6 weeks after the last spot has been noticed. ALL fish are inspected 2x/day.
QT#1:55g
Treatment 1: Copper- 3 weeks
Preventive Treatment 2: hypo @1.008 4 weeks
Angel- 4.5 weeks remaining
LMB- 3 weeks
Gramma- 4 weeks
<hr>
QT#2:10g
Treatment 1: Copper- 3 weeks
2 False percs
5 weeks remaining
Note: the Cupramine is coming this week and i will resume the copper treatment in QT#2 with that product
<hr>
QT#3:5g
Niger trigger
2 yellow tail damsels
Treatment 1: Copper-3weeks
Treatment 2: hypo @ 1.008 4 weeks
6+ weeks left
Quarantine Period = Round 2: Week 5
(This is about the time i gave up last time due to lack of patience..not this time..going the full 8 weeks.)
I lost my toby puffer the other day. was looking bad due to some secondary infection.
Fish will remain in quarantine for 6 weeks after the last spot has been noticed. ALL fish are inspected 2x/day.
QT#1:55g
Treatment 1: Copper- 3 weeks
Preventive Treatment 2: hypo @1.008 4 weeks
Angel- 4.5 weeks remaining
LMB- 3 weeks
Gramma- 4 weeks
<hr>
QT#2:10g
Treatment 1: Copper- 3 weeks
2 False percs
5 weeks remaining
Note: the Cupramine is coming this week and i will resume the copper treatment in QT#2 with that product
<hr>
QT#3:5g
Niger trigger
2 yellow tail damsels
Treatment 1: Copper-3weeks
Treatment 2: hypo @ 1.008 4 weeks
6+ weeks left
AquAsylum
New member
Update
Update
The skunk clown didn't make it. I treated with both praziquantel and furan-2. My hope right now is that it was bacterial and I just didn't catch it soon. I will lose it if the other fish catch it.
We are just past week 5 post-spots, and the display has been fallow for 8 weeks. I am gearing up for the slow salinity climb next weekend. Could someone point me in the right direction for the instructions regarding timing of the increases back up to 1.025? Then, I sincerely hope, it will just be a matter of patient observation until they can go "home." Odd to say that, since more than 1/2 of these fish are what brought the ich in and hadn't been in the display but 2 days before QT.
I have tried very hard to maintain 1.008 sg/ 11ppt salinity. I am, however, in south florida, and it tends to stay just barely under 1.010, despite adding 2 pitchers of fresh RO EVERY morning. I frequently calibrate my refractometer.
We've never really conquered the ammonia, but it is staying at .25. Not perfect, but the fish are managing. We are running 2 HOB filters with carbon and one of them also has a small wet/dry bio filter built in. pH has also been difficult, but I test daily and don't let it slide below 8.0.
Casualties:
Royal Gramma (didn't make it past the FW dip)
Orchid dottyback (lost in a rock during transport, never found it)
2 pink skunk clowns
Still going strong:
6 blue/green chromis
Rusty clown goby
Lawnmower blenny
Yellow watchman goby
Yellow Tang
Hippo Tang (who had the ich worst to begin with)
Solar/Painted Fairy Wrasse
Update
The skunk clown didn't make it. I treated with both praziquantel and furan-2. My hope right now is that it was bacterial and I just didn't catch it soon. I will lose it if the other fish catch it.
We are just past week 5 post-spots, and the display has been fallow for 8 weeks. I am gearing up for the slow salinity climb next weekend. Could someone point me in the right direction for the instructions regarding timing of the increases back up to 1.025? Then, I sincerely hope, it will just be a matter of patient observation until they can go "home." Odd to say that, since more than 1/2 of these fish are what brought the ich in and hadn't been in the display but 2 days before QT.
I have tried very hard to maintain 1.008 sg/ 11ppt salinity. I am, however, in south florida, and it tends to stay just barely under 1.010, despite adding 2 pitchers of fresh RO EVERY morning. I frequently calibrate my refractometer.
We've never really conquered the ammonia, but it is staying at .25. Not perfect, but the fish are managing. We are running 2 HOB filters with carbon and one of them also has a small wet/dry bio filter built in. pH has also been difficult, but I test daily and don't let it slide below 8.0.
Casualties:
Royal Gramma (didn't make it past the FW dip)
Orchid dottyback (lost in a rock during transport, never found it)
2 pink skunk clowns
Still going strong:
6 blue/green chromis
Rusty clown goby
Lawnmower blenny
Yellow watchman goby
Yellow Tang
Hippo Tang (who had the ich worst to begin with)
Solar/Painted Fairy Wrasse
Triggerfish
Active member
Re: Update
Re: Update
here is the link for raising sg
http://www.saltyzoo.com/SaltyCalcs/SalinityAdjust.
discussion begins on pg7 on this thread if you have issues using it.
hopefully if the sg did dip slighty above 1.009 the tomonts still perished.
wow NH3 is still at .25 even with using a remover like Prime.
how did you perform the FW dip where the gramma did not make it,,it's not common a fish would not survive a dip unless it was not done correctly...
gl
Re: Update
AquAsylum said:
here is the link for raising sg
http://www.saltyzoo.com/SaltyCalcs/SalinityAdjust.
discussion begins on pg7 on this thread if you have issues using it.
hopefully if the sg did dip slighty above 1.009 the tomonts still perished.
wow NH3 is still at .25 even with using a remover like Prime.
how did you perform the FW dip where the gramma did not make it,,it's not common a fish would not survive a dip unless it was not done correctly...
gl
Triggerfish
Active member
Questions regarding Quarantining being "Fool Proof"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Quarantine - you put a fish in a tank on its own for 6 weeks and keep an eye on it for symptoms. Then you add it to your display tank - disease free. Correct?
A: ich will be #1 issue you will likely deal with. a 6 week observation of new livestock should give indication if the parasite is present..if it is ONLY residing in the gills then i would think the fish would exhibit some type of respiration issues over time. although the parasite would not be visible as it matures and releases. so yes,,it 'should' be good to go as long as you did not miss seeing anything.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Ok Ich can exist in tanks without any obvious physical symptoms. In tanks that have ich all can be going well until conditions deteriorate and then the white spots appear. Correct the problem and the symptoms can fade away but ready to rear their head at any time. Correct so far?
A: that's debatable i would think.. you would need to be aware of all possible symptoms to make that determination.
there are no prerequisites that i have come across that will prevent the lifecycle from continuing. higher temps will speed up the lifecycle (i.e. spots become visible quicker) and low sg <=1.009 has been known to kill the lifecycle at the tomont stage.
just not sure how "well" a tank can be regardless of conditions.
apparently ich has no 'dormant' lifecycle stage, so no, the parasite cannot just rear at anytime. it's either there or not. if it is there the Trophonts (parasitic stage) will become visible for a short time. will be very hard to notice on some fish.. LM blennies for instance due to their black and white pattern.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: So what is to stop low-level (i.e. non visible) ich existing in your quarantine tank.
A: unless you are very acute as observing everything, the only way to be sure is to use a preventative treatment of copper of hypo. the only way the parasite would not be visible is if it is residing in the gills or perhaps internally. likely? i don't know..again, i would think that after 6 weeks of parasite reproduction that the fish would develop some type of visible symptoms, at the very least rapid respiration or lack of appetite.
2-3 weeks copper or 4-5 weeks hypo is added safety.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Over the past 4 months I have been putting some long thought into quarantining.
My Conclusion:
i have chosen to put new fish through both treatments during a 6 week quarantine process. 3 weeks copper followed by 4 weeks hypo.
beyond that..i really do not think there would be much more i could do.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Quarantine - you put a fish in a tank on its own for 6 weeks and keep an eye on it for symptoms. Then you add it to your display tank - disease free. Correct?
A: ich will be #1 issue you will likely deal with. a 6 week observation of new livestock should give indication if the parasite is present..if it is ONLY residing in the gills then i would think the fish would exhibit some type of respiration issues over time. although the parasite would not be visible as it matures and releases. so yes,,it 'should' be good to go as long as you did not miss seeing anything.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Ok Ich can exist in tanks without any obvious physical symptoms. In tanks that have ich all can be going well until conditions deteriorate and then the white spots appear. Correct the problem and the symptoms can fade away but ready to rear their head at any time. Correct so far?
A: that's debatable i would think.. you would need to be aware of all possible symptoms to make that determination.
there are no prerequisites that i have come across that will prevent the lifecycle from continuing. higher temps will speed up the lifecycle (i.e. spots become visible quicker) and low sg <=1.009 has been known to kill the lifecycle at the tomont stage.
just not sure how "well" a tank can be regardless of conditions.
apparently ich has no 'dormant' lifecycle stage, so no, the parasite cannot just rear at anytime. it's either there or not. if it is there the Trophonts (parasitic stage) will become visible for a short time. will be very hard to notice on some fish.. LM blennies for instance due to their black and white pattern.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: So what is to stop low-level (i.e. non visible) ich existing in your quarantine tank.
A: unless you are very acute as observing everything, the only way to be sure is to use a preventative treatment of copper of hypo. the only way the parasite would not be visible is if it is residing in the gills or perhaps internally. likely? i don't know..again, i would think that after 6 weeks of parasite reproduction that the fish would develop some type of visible symptoms, at the very least rapid respiration or lack of appetite.
2-3 weeks copper or 4-5 weeks hypo is added safety.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Over the past 4 months I have been putting some long thought into quarantining.
My Conclusion:
i have chosen to put new fish through both treatments during a 6 week quarantine process. 3 weeks copper followed by 4 weeks hypo.
beyond that..i really do not think there would be much more i could do.
AquAsylum
New member
Re: Re: Update
Re: Re: Update
I don't understand the ammonia either- not only did I use prime, but I used stability for 10 days in the beginning and did SO many water changes- my husband thinks I've lost it! I went through all of that with the 4 different test kits reading differently and now I just trust my SeaChem alert badge for the most part. I think it is probably just because of so many fish in a 55 gallon tank. I don't know how people do it long term with an overstocked tank...
Back on point- the dip was a standard dip- fresh R/O, with pH and temperature matched. I observed each fish (each dipped separately, wasn't that fun) and the dip lasted an average of 10 minutes. The wrasse only went through a 5 minute dip b/c I had read that they are more sensitive and I was paranoid about it. I've read a number of the "experts" statements that if a fish doesn't survive a properly performed dip, it was just too sick, and I think that was the case with the gramma. He had been flashing for about 3 weeks but never showed any spotting so I hadn't diagnosed ich. After the new fish were introduced, they ALL were spotted. Twenty minutes after being put in the QT the gramma was a floater
Re: Re: Update
Triggerfish said:
I don't understand the ammonia either- not only did I use prime, but I used stability for 10 days in the beginning and did SO many water changes- my husband thinks I've lost it! I went through all of that with the 4 different test kits reading differently and now I just trust my SeaChem alert badge for the most part. I think it is probably just because of so many fish in a 55 gallon tank. I don't know how people do it long term with an overstocked tank...
Back on point- the dip was a standard dip- fresh R/O, with pH and temperature matched. I observed each fish (each dipped separately, wasn't that fun) and the dip lasted an average of 10 minutes. The wrasse only went through a 5 minute dip b/c I had read that they are more sensitive and I was paranoid about it. I've read a number of the "experts" statements that if a fish doesn't survive a properly performed dip, it was just too sick, and I think that was the case with the gramma. He had been flashing for about 3 weeks but never showed any spotting so I hadn't diagnosed ich. After the new fish were introduced, they ALL were spotted. Twenty minutes after being put in the QT the gramma was a floater
Triggerfish
Active member
i've never been able to keep a fish in a FW dip for longer than 3m due to the fish going into osmotic shock..that is likely what happened to the gramma.
FW baths i think are safer and less stressful..just use like a 10:1 FW to SW.
FW baths i think are safer and less stressful..just use like a 10:1 FW to SW.
AquAsylum
New member
About the dip- The rest of the fish were absolutely fine after the same treatment, and I was following advice that spanned several researchers and articles.
About the sg increase- I used the calculator and it makes sense. Two questions regarding the recommendations:
1- why are you supposed to reintroduce water that was in the tank to begin with? Because of our ammonia level, I prefer to add new water whenever I can (water changes consistently at 25%, nothing so drastic as to remove all of the "good" stuff from the water).
2- is there any reason for doing the changes every 12 hours instead of once a day other than convenience? Obviously, if you can do 2 increases per day you'll get there more quickly. I just don't have the time in the mornings to do that- testing is more than enough!
About the sg increase- I used the calculator and it makes sense. Two questions regarding the recommendations:
1- why are you supposed to reintroduce water that was in the tank to begin with? Because of our ammonia level, I prefer to add new water whenever I can (water changes consistently at 25%, nothing so drastic as to remove all of the "good" stuff from the water).
2- is there any reason for doing the changes every 12 hours instead of once a day other than convenience? Obviously, if you can do 2 increases per day you'll get there more quickly. I just don't have the time in the mornings to do that- testing is more than enough!
Triggerfish
Active member
you would just remove the water from the qt add the salt aerate for a bit and toss back in the qt. most folks are not doing 2x water changes per day to remove amm. - so you used the same water.
i do not think there is any reason to do 2x day besides that is what they recommend.. i actually did the whole thing in about 5-6 total changes over 3-4 days on my 1st time around.
i do not think there is any reason to do 2x day besides that is what they recommend.. i actually did the whole thing in about 5-6 total changes over 3-4 days on my 1st time around.
guyguerra
Premium Member
Hi, I saw the name of the thread and had to check it out. I, like many others hope there is such a thing as an Ich free tank. I went thru a terrible time with it this past January (I've got many threads about it) and never thought I'd be rid of it. I tried Cupramine, but later became convinced that you should only use Seachems test kit, as other kits were showing correct readings, but when I finally got the Seachem kit the reading was too low. Then I tried hypo at 11ppt for 8 weeks, to which the parasite became resistant. I went back to Cupramine for 8 weeks and it was finally over. The survivors were a copperband, ariga butterfly, foxface and two clowns. The losses are to depressing to list. I moved all of them into my new QT (after the Ich was gone, as I used my display for treatment). It has not shown up again. Now I will be moving them into a brand new 230 gallon tank that is cycling right now, so I don't see how I could have Ich again. All new fish will have to live in the 55 gallon qt for 6 weeks before going into the display, and I plan to only add one fish at a time. I never want to deal with Ich again. It was TERRIBLE! If I ever see Ich in my tank again I'll then be convinced that it lives in all tanks, or might be impossible to detect in a QT for six weeks. We'll see.......
Triggerfish
Active member
yeah,,the hypo seems to be hit or miss.. i am still having a tough time with that treatment on my niger trigger..unless the spot is something besides ich..who the hell knows.
good the BF survived the copper for that long..think they are known to be more sensitive to copper treatments.
good the BF survived the copper for that long..think they are known to be more sensitive to copper treatments.
Triggerfish
Active member
<font color=ff0000><font size=4>UPDATE </font></font>
Quarantine Period = Round 2: Week 7
All fish continue to do well considering they have been in quarantine for about 3 months total time.
QT#1:55g
Treatment 1: Copper- 3 weeks (ich survived) dosage issue?
Treatment 2: Copper (Cupramine)- 3 weeks
Angel- 4 weeks remaining
LMB- 1 week
Gramma- 1 week
<hr>
QT#2:10g
Treatment 1: Copper- 3 weeks
there are some spots on the male clown..really do not think it's ich. the spots are rather large and do not really resemble the typical ich spot. after copper treatment i will treat with formalin for possible Brooklynella.
2 False percs
4+ weeks remaining
<hr>
QT#3:5g
Niger trigger
Treatment 1: Copper-3weeks
Treatment 2: hypo @ 1.008 4 weeks
still has a spot on him..since the same spot has been there for 3+weeks it must be something else besides ich??
6+ weeks left [/B][/QUOTE]
Quarantine Period = Round 2: Week 7
All fish continue to do well considering they have been in quarantine for about 3 months total time.
QT#1:55g
Treatment 1: Copper- 3 weeks (ich survived) dosage issue?
Treatment 2: Copper (Cupramine)- 3 weeks
Angel- 4 weeks remaining
LMB- 1 week
Gramma- 1 week
<hr>
QT#2:10g
Treatment 1: Copper- 3 weeks
there are some spots on the male clown..really do not think it's ich. the spots are rather large and do not really resemble the typical ich spot. after copper treatment i will treat with formalin for possible Brooklynella.
2 False percs
4+ weeks remaining
<hr>
QT#3:5g
Niger trigger
Treatment 1: Copper-3weeks
Treatment 2: hypo @ 1.008 4 weeks
still has a spot on him..since the same spot has been there for 3+weeks it must be something else besides ich??
6+ weeks left [/B][/QUOTE]
AquAsylum
New member
***??
***??
Okay, so, last weekend we brought our QT salinity up. Over 5 days, it went from 1.008 to 1.023, where it remains. Now, of course, is the wait and see routine.
Well, the fish look terrible. The yellow tang seems to have some lympho on her fins and her body looks covered in tiny pimples. The hippo tang is coated with blotches of furry looking slime. And the rusty goby has a "scratch" on one side. Wrasse, LMB, YWG, and chromis seem okay.
What is the deal? If the hippo has amyloodinium (sp?) I should throw in the towel and start a copper treatment. I can't figure out what on earth is wrong with the poor yellow tang...
The advice I need might not come from this thread, but it is so sadly bizarre to me that these new ailments are surfacing after 6 weeks hypo, almost 10 weeks total in QT. Will it never end?
***??
Okay, so, last weekend we brought our QT salinity up. Over 5 days, it went from 1.008 to 1.023, where it remains. Now, of course, is the wait and see routine.
Well, the fish look terrible. The yellow tang seems to have some lympho on her fins and her body looks covered in tiny pimples. The hippo tang is coated with blotches of furry looking slime. And the rusty goby has a "scratch" on one side. Wrasse, LMB, YWG, and chromis seem okay.
What is the deal? If the hippo has amyloodinium (sp?) I should throw in the towel and start a copper treatment. I can't figure out what on earth is wrong with the poor yellow tang...
The advice I need might not come from this thread, but it is so sadly bizarre to me that these new ailments are surfacing after 6 weeks hypo, almost 10 weeks total in QT. Will it never end?
Triggerfish
Active member
how long have they looked like that? just since you raised the sg back to normal? was it like all of a sudden..
doesn't sound like oodinium at all to me.
what color of the pimple looking things on tang?
1 of my damsels develop some lymph or something on its fin during treatment as well...
sounds like you may want to dose a copper treatment for just couple weeks to ensure the ich is gone..then get them back in the main system.
you could get the fish that have looked good for the duration the heck out of quarantine as soon as the main tank is ready.
i found it tough to quarantine more than 1 fish in the same system never mind 7. some fish may come down with somthing else that may need to be treated separately...it blows for sure..
gl
doesn't sound like oodinium at all to me.
what color of the pimple looking things on tang?
1 of my damsels develop some lymph or something on its fin during treatment as well...
sounds like you may want to dose a copper treatment for just couple weeks to ensure the ich is gone..then get them back in the main system.
you could get the fish that have looked good for the duration the heck out of quarantine as soon as the main tank is ready.
i found it tough to quarantine more than 1 fish in the same system never mind 7. some fish may come down with somthing else that may need to be treated separately...it blows for sure..
gl
AquAsylum
New member
Okay, I had (I hope) a bit of an overreaction. I think that maybe the salinity increase was too much for the tangs. The yellow tang is looking much MUCH better. S/he now has no pimply looking things, but just one line that I'm pretty sure is HLLE. I'm working on figuring out a good treatment for that right now.
I can't figure out what the hippo's deal is. The big problem is that he is too quick and still shy for me to get a good look. Here is what I could see- looks like enlarged pores around the mouth, the formerly fuzzy white area blotched on the body is now more brownish, so I'm thinking bacterial infection. I am dosing maracyn right now and a low malachite green bath as well.
I would very much like to put the rest of the fish back in the display- it has been fallow for 10 weeks now. I was only worried that if somehow the parasite/a parasite has remained in the QT that the fish I move back could carry it with them even if they aren't showing symptoms. I want to watch everyone for at least one more week.
I can't figure out what the hippo's deal is. The big problem is that he is too quick and still shy for me to get a good look. Here is what I could see- looks like enlarged pores around the mouth, the formerly fuzzy white area blotched on the body is now more brownish, so I'm thinking bacterial infection. I am dosing maracyn right now and a low malachite green bath as well.
I would very much like to put the rest of the fish back in the display- it has been fallow for 10 weeks now. I was only worried that if somehow the parasite/a parasite has remained in the QT that the fish I move back could carry it with them even if they aren't showing symptoms. I want to watch everyone for at least one more week.
AquAsylum
New member
Just read Terry's article on HLLE. I'm not sure if the hippo has it, but I'm setting off to find some vitamin supplements. I have been feeding ocean nutrition reef formula and formula 1 (flakes and pellets, respectively) along with frozen brine soaked in garlic. Yesterday I got formula 2 flakes and the tangs aren't touching it. I also have green nori. I wonder if it would be a good idea to pull some of the caulerpa or other algae out of our display? I'll give it a shot and report back.
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